ETA watch ebauches
Discussion
If so many of the well known and expensive brands are using ETA mechanicals then what are we paying for on the more upmarket end.
I can see paying for gold etc but do we pay the swiss over the odds for a bit of tarting-up.
This is perhaps when a bloody good cyberface reply would come in handy
john
I can see paying for gold etc but do we pay the swiss over the odds for a bit of tarting-up.
This is perhaps when a bloody good cyberface reply would come in handy
john
Spotted this on another forum.
Uhrenjournal on IWC's Use of ETA Base Movements said:
Question:
How can a fine watch manufacturer such as IWC, state, that despite using an ETA-serial calibre, it renders a base ETA movement into a new, superior IWC movement? For example, what changes are made to an ETA-Valjoux 7750 calibre before it is built into an IWC chronograph?
Many watch manufacturers purchase their calibres from the serial base calibre manufacturer ETA. ETA offers a wide variety serving most needs. However, for many watch collectors seeking limited production calibres, this is just the reason to avoid buying a watch with an ETA movement. What if a renowned manufacturer such as IWC Schaffhausen would use the actually very good and tested ETA Valjoux 7750 for its chronographs, after undertaking numerous modifications? What speaks against the ETA movement? Actually, only the fact that it is widely used and therefore not very exclusive. In turn, what speaks for the ETA movement is that, due to the high production, it is a mature and technically impeccable movement. There are no "infant illnesses" and it is constantly developed further. Why therefore should IWC overlook the best serial chronograph-movement? Obviously, there are other alternatives, however, from an economic and technical standpoint, the decision for the Valjoux is guaranteed to be the right move.
Now, what does IWC do with this calibre, and why do they treat it as if it were their own movement? The explanation is pretty simple: IWC purchases the best serial engine and undertakes on that basis the best possible engine tuning. You could say that IWC does what AMG does with Mercedes engines, Alpina with BMW or Abt with VW or Audi engines. Serial engines are used, which in turn are tuned and optimized with the best experience available.
In the case of the Valjoux, the calibre is only bought in its components, never readily assembled. In addition, only the best possible version is purchased - the so-called Chronometer version. When the components arrive in Schaffhausen (IWC's factory location) there are first of all checked by eye, and then randomly checked in detail. Some components of the original ETA calibre are immediately eliminated and are never used by IWC. They are replaced by usually more expensive and better ones.
The entire escapement is a good example. It is ordered separately with different, more exact technical IWC specifications and is only fitted into the calibre at the end of the assembly. Some changes take place even earlier: For instance, all metal bearings of the Valjoux 7760 are replaced by jewel bearings - the Valjoux 7760 (same as the 7750 but in the handwound version) is the basis for the Portugieser Chronograph movements. There is an IWC expert whose job it is to extract by hand all metal bearings from the supplied calibre and replace them with the more expensive jeweled bearings. This is an effort, which will ultimately significantly increase the longevity of the movement.
This exercise is futile in the version 7750 as it only comes with jewels. Instead numerous cogwheels are replaced. For instance, one is part of the winding mechanism, which ETA supplies with three holes in order that it can be worked on by machines and be transported by robot arms. As the holes are drilled, there is some metal, which is pushed over the surface - causing friction with the above-located bridge. Now IWC found out that it is precisely the position of these holes, which will cause fine metallic debris over time to accumulate. In the short run, such metallic debris is not a problem, however over a longer period such debris will cause problems.
Many more examples could be listed at this point, reaching far beyond the space allocated for this article. Therefore, let's come back to the escapement of the movement. Before the escapement is fitted into the movement, a specially trained, female horological expert (so-called regleuse) checks each hairspring for unevenness. How does she do it? Quite simple, she holds the escapement with a special device and turns it. Then she makes sure with her magnifying glass than the escapement unfolds in concentric circles. If not, she manually bends the hairspring to perfection. Again, this in an effort of which the value is only apparent in the sum of all efforts and is ultimately reflected in the accuracy of the movement. The pinnacle of all these tuning efforts lies in completely replacing the barrel. There are some many changes and modifications to the calibre 7750 leading to far lower power requirements of the movement. As a result the original ETA barrel is now far too strong for the modified IWC movement. A "weaker" IWC barrel brings about significant advantages. All moving parts suffer far less wear and tear because there are exposed to far smaller forces - again, this significantly prolongs the average life of an IWC movement.
It is not exaggerated if IWC makes the statement that it treats the ETA movements as if it were an original IWC movement. The numerous modifications and the great care, completely transform the original, mass-produced movement by ETA into another movement. ETA is not necessarily ETA as it is often falsely stated.
How can a fine watch manufacturer such as IWC, state, that despite using an ETA-serial calibre, it renders a base ETA movement into a new, superior IWC movement? For example, what changes are made to an ETA-Valjoux 7750 calibre before it is built into an IWC chronograph?
Many watch manufacturers purchase their calibres from the serial base calibre manufacturer ETA. ETA offers a wide variety serving most needs. However, for many watch collectors seeking limited production calibres, this is just the reason to avoid buying a watch with an ETA movement. What if a renowned manufacturer such as IWC Schaffhausen would use the actually very good and tested ETA Valjoux 7750 for its chronographs, after undertaking numerous modifications? What speaks against the ETA movement? Actually, only the fact that it is widely used and therefore not very exclusive. In turn, what speaks for the ETA movement is that, due to the high production, it is a mature and technically impeccable movement. There are no "infant illnesses" and it is constantly developed further. Why therefore should IWC overlook the best serial chronograph-movement? Obviously, there are other alternatives, however, from an economic and technical standpoint, the decision for the Valjoux is guaranteed to be the right move.
Now, what does IWC do with this calibre, and why do they treat it as if it were their own movement? The explanation is pretty simple: IWC purchases the best serial engine and undertakes on that basis the best possible engine tuning. You could say that IWC does what AMG does with Mercedes engines, Alpina with BMW or Abt with VW or Audi engines. Serial engines are used, which in turn are tuned and optimized with the best experience available.
In the case of the Valjoux, the calibre is only bought in its components, never readily assembled. In addition, only the best possible version is purchased - the so-called Chronometer version. When the components arrive in Schaffhausen (IWC's factory location) there are first of all checked by eye, and then randomly checked in detail. Some components of the original ETA calibre are immediately eliminated and are never used by IWC. They are replaced by usually more expensive and better ones.
The entire escapement is a good example. It is ordered separately with different, more exact technical IWC specifications and is only fitted into the calibre at the end of the assembly. Some changes take place even earlier: For instance, all metal bearings of the Valjoux 7760 are replaced by jewel bearings - the Valjoux 7760 (same as the 7750 but in the handwound version) is the basis for the Portugieser Chronograph movements. There is an IWC expert whose job it is to extract by hand all metal bearings from the supplied calibre and replace them with the more expensive jeweled bearings. This is an effort, which will ultimately significantly increase the longevity of the movement.
This exercise is futile in the version 7750 as it only comes with jewels. Instead numerous cogwheels are replaced. For instance, one is part of the winding mechanism, which ETA supplies with three holes in order that it can be worked on by machines and be transported by robot arms. As the holes are drilled, there is some metal, which is pushed over the surface - causing friction with the above-located bridge. Now IWC found out that it is precisely the position of these holes, which will cause fine metallic debris over time to accumulate. In the short run, such metallic debris is not a problem, however over a longer period such debris will cause problems.
Many more examples could be listed at this point, reaching far beyond the space allocated for this article. Therefore, let's come back to the escapement of the movement. Before the escapement is fitted into the movement, a specially trained, female horological expert (so-called regleuse) checks each hairspring for unevenness. How does she do it? Quite simple, she holds the escapement with a special device and turns it. Then she makes sure with her magnifying glass than the escapement unfolds in concentric circles. If not, she manually bends the hairspring to perfection. Again, this in an effort of which the value is only apparent in the sum of all efforts and is ultimately reflected in the accuracy of the movement. The pinnacle of all these tuning efforts lies in completely replacing the barrel. There are some many changes and modifications to the calibre 7750 leading to far lower power requirements of the movement. As a result the original ETA barrel is now far too strong for the modified IWC movement. A "weaker" IWC barrel brings about significant advantages. All moving parts suffer far less wear and tear because there are exposed to far smaller forces - again, this significantly prolongs the average life of an IWC movement.
It is not exaggerated if IWC makes the statement that it treats the ETA movements as if it were an original IWC movement. The numerous modifications and the great care, completely transform the original, mass-produced movement by ETA into another movement. ETA is not necessarily ETA as it is often falsely stated.
apotek said:
If so many of the well known and expensive brands are using ETA mechanicals then what are we paying for on the more upmarket end.
I can see paying for gold etc but do we pay the swiss over the odds for a bit of tarting-up.
This is perhaps when a bloody good cyberface reply would come in handy
john
Design, brand, exclusivity, marketing, materials, ownership ... It's the reason why Hublot sell high-end £6K+ watches that incorporate a movement that can be found in a £1K watch! I can see paying for gold etc but do we pay the swiss over the odds for a bit of tarting-up.
This is perhaps when a bloody good cyberface reply would come in handy
john
The movement isn't necessarily a concern for some buyers. The thought of owning an Ice Bang might be more appealing to some than owning a JLC with an in-house movement 
Thanks for your post ALEXC it seems to raise more questions than answers.It looks to me that we are all to some extent being had.I was looking at a Franck Muller but it turns out the movement FM2800 is ETA based,and anyway it appears I`ve missed the watch.So most of the time we are buying jewellery and style first and movements second.This is fine but a one carat cartier diamond doesn`t cost 10 or 20 times more than one carat off the high street,if you see what I mean.
By the way generally my eta based watches keep perfect time and are totally reliable and I am not knocking ETA just questioning the guilding of the lily
By the way generally my eta based watches keep perfect time and are totally reliable and I am not knocking ETA just questioning the guilding of the lily
apotek said:
If so many of the well known and expensive brands are using ETA mechanicals then what are we paying for on the more upmarket end.
I can see paying for gold etc but do we pay the swiss over the odds for a bit of tarting-up.
This is perhaps when a bloody good cyberface reply would come in handy
john
Agreed.I can see paying for gold etc but do we pay the swiss over the odds for a bit of tarting-up.
This is perhaps when a bloody good cyberface reply would come in handy
john
I asked this question on the Patek section of the PPpurist board (patek are the benchmark I suppose) and people basically said that Patek modify and re-finish the base mechanicals to a virtually custom standard. Beyond that they say the movements themselves are super rare and mega expensive.
I think Patek are making more and more in house now anyway.
Fittster said:
Is there any evidence that the tweaking of the ETA ebauches actually results in a better watch (e.g. better time keeping)?
Yes. Some of it's deliberate (better quality components- say olived jewels over flat cut, particular balance & spring combinations, different pivots), some of it's accidental (if you make 50,000 watches, each with two hundred components, each individually made to within a tolerence, then there's a lot of scope for errors to cancel each other out, or magnify problems) and some of it is simply down to how much watchmaking skill has gone into assembling and regulating the thing.This latter point, especially, is the one that get's left behind in today's brand obsessed world- very few people actually care so much about the accuracy of their watch to be impressed by a two or three sec/day difference, yet many more are impressed with the branding, looks and marketing- watch companies havent used accuracy to market their watches since the Quartz revolution for just that reason- noone cares.
Of course, basic cheaper ETA movements are miles better than cheap mechanicals of 40 years ago and perfectly good for anyone. Many, given enough sweat & watchmkaing tears could probably hit COSC without the improved components, but the higher grade movements will do it with much less pain. I don't know which brands specifically put that much work into their movements these day's since ETA can do so much themselves at your request (they do, after all, have a bit of experience) but the "it's just an ETA" crowd annoy me as much as those who insist on calling Audi's Skoda's to rile their owners or would turn their nose up at a balanced, race prepped engine as being "just a ford", but like cars, people like watches for different reasons.
Wether or not a Chronometer grade Breitling or Bremont is worth the money to the indiviual will, of course, always be open to question, and the accuracy of the watch will likely makeup little of the internal wranglings of a customer when buying their mass-produced bauble- if you could buy a £500 ETA- based Hamilton or Oris & pay a watchmaker £500 to make it more accurate than a £5000 Rolex, would that make it the more desirable watch?
Edited by glazbagun on Thursday 5th May 17:47
Murcielago_Boy said:
Agreed.
I asked this question on the Patek section of the PPpurist board (patek are the benchmark I suppose) and people basically said that Patek modify and re-finish the base mechanicals to a virtually custom standard. Beyond that they say the movements themselves are super rare and mega expensive.
I think Patek are making more and more in house now anyway.
I didn't think Patek used anything but inhouse stuff nowadays?I asked this question on the Patek section of the PPpurist board (patek are the benchmark I suppose) and people basically said that Patek modify and re-finish the base mechanicals to a virtually custom standard. Beyond that they say the movements themselves are super rare and mega expensive.
I think Patek are making more and more in house now anyway.
And even when it wasn't inhouse it was bought in stuff from JLC.
Isnt it like buying a Jag with a Mondeo engine? People still pay more for the Jag - for all the reasons in Ikemi's post.
For me, if I am going to spend £5k on a watch (which I hope to do one of these days) then I am going to make damn sure I understand whether its value for money. VFM for me at that price point means (amongst other things) buying a watch with an in house movement like a JLC, and not a FM thats blinged up, but doesnt have impressive innards.
If the point about PP using ETA movements is right, I'd be gutted. It would be like buying a Ferrari to discover they'd outsourced their engine manufacture to Tata,
For me, if I am going to spend £5k on a watch (which I hope to do one of these days) then I am going to make damn sure I understand whether its value for money. VFM for me at that price point means (amongst other things) buying a watch with an in house movement like a JLC, and not a FM thats blinged up, but doesnt have impressive innards.
If the point about PP using ETA movements is right, I'd be gutted. It would be like buying a Ferrari to discover they'd outsourced their engine manufacture to Tata,
996nick said:
Isnt it like buying a Jag with a Mondeo engine? People still pay more for the Jag - for all the reasons in Ikemi's post.
For me, if I am going to spend £5k on a watch (which I hope to do one of these days) then I am going to make damn sure I understand whether its value for money. VFM for me at that price point means (amongst other things) buying a watch with an in house movement like a JLC, and not a FM thats blinged up, but doesnt have impressive innards.
If the point about PP using ETA movements is right, I'd be gutted. It would be like buying a Ferrari to discover they'd outsourced their engine manufacture to Tata,
No mate. For me, if I am going to spend £5k on a watch (which I hope to do one of these days) then I am going to make damn sure I understand whether its value for money. VFM for me at that price point means (amongst other things) buying a watch with an in house movement like a JLC, and not a FM thats blinged up, but doesnt have impressive innards.
If the point about PP using ETA movements is right, I'd be gutted. It would be like buying a Ferrari to discover they'd outsourced their engine manufacture to Tata,
PP's old Lemania movements were horrifically hard to make, very expensive and very rare then re-finished and done up again.
The automotive equivalent is actually Rolls Royce building a sports car and asking Ferrari for the engine!
Murcielago_Boy said:
They were "nouvelle lemania" whatever that means...
Nouvelle Lemania was the resulting company after SSIH (Omega, Tissot & Lemania) sold the Lemania part on in 1981 to and via Piaget funding. Here it went on to make movements for Heuer for a short while, (although these were the same movements used previously with Omega/Tissot). This lasted until 1985 when they were bought out by TAG. Lemania was then bought by Investcorps who already owned Breguet, they provided the 'in-house' Breguet movements until the whole lot was bought again in 1999 by SWATCH group. From here Lemania was subsumed into the group and lost it's independent identity.During these phases they made movements for Patek, Vacheron, Audemars Piguet, Breguet, Breitling, Omega, Heuer, Tissot and their own watches, with other smaller watch manufacturers being provided movements too (PD, Orfina, etc) along with many issued military watches from the sixties to the nineties.
The level of finishing for the PP ones takes the movement into a different league, but have a look at the 321 Omega hand wound movement (Lemania 2310) and it really is a lovely classic integrated design with 'high-end' features (screw balance, arched bridge, vertical clutch & column wheel).
As for the '7750' debate in terms of value; I think this is where a company either does nothing and sticks it in a watch and relies on branding/perception etc to drive price or they add something intrinsic to them to justify price - one of the reasons I like Sinn - they add a lot to the watch out-with the movement and keep prices on a par with other brands that do little if anything to their watches.
Edited by andy_s on Monday 9th May 14:03
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