Discussion
OK so everyone had said their piece about this car in the general gassing section. I just wanted to add that having driven the car a couple of times, and me ordering one, needless to say I like them alot!
Having owned a Lotus Elise prior to this I feel I can make a few comments about the Civic being 'noisy' and 'unresponsive'. Quite simply the Elise was far slower and much more of a headache to drive compared to the Civic. On the test drive for the Civic I made a point of chatting to the salesman at an indicated 85mph and it was fine. In the Elise at that speed you had to yell for the person next to you have a chance of catching anything you said.
As for it being slow outside of the power band, what a load of pants! I think it accelerates so hard above 5600 rpm that it would obviously seem slow below this. It also keeps accelerating above 100mph as well, I have video footage of a CTR overtaking me at Goodwood. Considering I was going flat out in the Elise at the time on a straight, the CTR just flys by!
I think the question that has to be asked is do you think that the CTR is the best compromise between a raod and track car? Loud and lairy when you want it, but will fulfill everyday chores quite happily.
>>> Edited by adeewuff on Tuesday 7th May 13:45
Having owned a Lotus Elise prior to this I feel I can make a few comments about the Civic being 'noisy' and 'unresponsive'. Quite simply the Elise was far slower and much more of a headache to drive compared to the Civic. On the test drive for the Civic I made a point of chatting to the salesman at an indicated 85mph and it was fine. In the Elise at that speed you had to yell for the person next to you have a chance of catching anything you said.
As for it being slow outside of the power band, what a load of pants! I think it accelerates so hard above 5600 rpm that it would obviously seem slow below this. It also keeps accelerating above 100mph as well, I have video footage of a CTR overtaking me at Goodwood. Considering I was going flat out in the Elise at the time on a straight, the CTR just flys by!
I think the question that has to be asked is do you think that the CTR is the best compromise between a raod and track car? Loud and lairy when you want it, but will fulfill everyday chores quite happily.
>>> Edited by adeewuff on Tuesday 7th May 13:45
Ten days & just over 1000 miles into ownership of my CTR, my Elise is but a distant memory. The CTR will take me & three friends faster & more safely than my Elise would ever take me & the missus. Yes, it does feel a little slow out of the powerband, but more & more, I think that this is just relatively slow.
How much faster than an Elise?
Well, shoot down motorway sliproad & straight past S1 Elise. Cruise quietly & smoothly, relaxing for a while at 80ish, Liz catches up behind in third lane. Select 4th gear (6k ish), press the loud pedal & a handful of seconds later you are approaching the red line in 5th & 120+. Check mirrors & nothing.
The CTR can only be caught with it's pants down once. If you decide you want to drive quickly, you only have to breach the VTEC point once. After that, every time you change up a gear at the red line you are already on the VTEC point again.
& economy is improving!!
How much faster than an Elise?
Well, shoot down motorway sliproad & straight past S1 Elise. Cruise quietly & smoothly, relaxing for a while at 80ish, Liz catches up behind in third lane. Select 4th gear (6k ish), press the loud pedal & a handful of seconds later you are approaching the red line in 5th & 120+. Check mirrors & nothing.
The CTR can only be caught with it's pants down once. If you decide you want to drive quickly, you only have to breach the VTEC point once. After that, every time you change up a gear at the red line you are already on the VTEC point again.
& economy is improving!!
Actually you saying that has made me even more excited about getting my car, only 7 more days to go! When I was chatting to the salesman he said that it would take at least 5000 miles for the engine to run in properly, by then it actually develops more power and torque as well! I can sense fun times are ahead.... 
How much has your economy improved by?
>> Edited by adeewuff on Tuesday 7th May 12:42
How much has your economy improved by?
>> Edited by adeewuff on Tuesday 7th May 12:42
When I bought mine from Robert Bowett Honda I did ask about running it in. There is a tiny paragraph in the 400ish page manual that says something along the lines of 'don't abuse it in the first 600 miles' although it doesn't quantify anything & it is just aimed at Civics in general. It was a bit late when I got to the page though as my car had already been to the petrol station twice by the time I read it.
In the words of my salesman 'don't be afraid (me??, as if)to give it some hammer from day one. The engine will bed in better & the management system will learn how you drive & adapt to suit. The brakes won't give their best until about 2k.'
I know that Honda have not had one single claim under warranty for their VTEC engines in 12ish years of making them so I think they can take the abuse. Don't get me wrong though, I am mechanically sympathetic (aren't all of us ex Elise owners?) as it will be me paying the bills, & I always make sure that the engine is up to temperature before visiting the red line. The brakes have been good since the first mile.
I have also read on a webpage that the 6k VTEC change is not fixed. This can move up or down slightly depending on engine loading, throttle opening & it learning how you drive.
The first 700 miles averaged 27MPG ish & some of the miles were driven quite hard, although driving it carefully didn't seem to make much difference - perhaps I'd just got heavy shoes on? The last tank was used at the rate of 29.5MPG & my driving wasn't appreciably different, I even got 130 before having to brake reasonbly hard for a roundabout. It felt really stable at speed & under braking.
In the words of my salesman 'don't be afraid (me??, as if)to give it some hammer from day one. The engine will bed in better & the management system will learn how you drive & adapt to suit. The brakes won't give their best until about 2k.'
I know that Honda have not had one single claim under warranty for their VTEC engines in 12ish years of making them so I think they can take the abuse. Don't get me wrong though, I am mechanically sympathetic (aren't all of us ex Elise owners?) as it will be me paying the bills, & I always make sure that the engine is up to temperature before visiting the red line. The brakes have been good since the first mile.
I have also read on a webpage that the 6k VTEC change is not fixed. This can move up or down slightly depending on engine loading, throttle opening & it learning how you drive.
The first 700 miles averaged 27MPG ish & some of the miles were driven quite hard, although driving it carefully didn't seem to make much difference - perhaps I'd just got heavy shoes on? The last tank was used at the rate of 29.5MPG & my driving wasn't appreciably different, I even got 130 before having to brake reasonbly hard for a roundabout. It felt really stable at speed & under braking.
I've no doubt in the quality and reliablity of the Honda engines and I'm sure giving them a good thrashing is just what they need to get going. The fact that Honda can put such an amazing engine in something so low priced is quite fantastic.
How did you feel BTW when you saw an Elise on the road when driving the Civic? I have to say that I see the Elise in a far different light now that I've owned one and know the in's and out's of them. I would certainly feel a bit sorry for the driver if it was raining, no chance of having a relaxed journey then!
How did you feel BTW when you saw an Elise on the road when driving the Civic? I have to say that I see the Elise in a far different light now that I've owned one and know the in's and out's of them. I would certainly feel a bit sorry for the driver if it was raining, no chance of having a relaxed journey then!
It depends.
I suppose if it was sunny & there was an open road I may feel a bit sad. But then again how many times have you been caught with the roof up when sunny because you couldn't be bothered with the fuss of removing it? & how many times have you returned home looking a little too well because you forgot the sunblock?
If it was damp or wet I'd be laughing & if I came up against a Scooby I'd not be running into the wall of air at 80+ whilst he pulled away.
If there was one at the traffic lights I'd try & keep a low profile though until I got off the line because with Liz you just drop the clutch at 2-3k, get grip & fly away. With the CTR it is soooooo easy to lose grip from the line, even just trying to nip out with a tiny 1500-2k on the clock in the dry can have front wheels scrabbling.
I hope they get better with age or it'll be bye bye Bridgestone come renewal.
I suppose if it was sunny & there was an open road I may feel a bit sad. But then again how many times have you been caught with the roof up when sunny because you couldn't be bothered with the fuss of removing it? & how many times have you returned home looking a little too well because you forgot the sunblock?
If it was damp or wet I'd be laughing & if I came up against a Scooby I'd not be running into the wall of air at 80+ whilst he pulled away.
If there was one at the traffic lights I'd try & keep a low profile though until I got off the line because with Liz you just drop the clutch at 2-3k, get grip & fly away. With the CTR it is soooooo easy to lose grip from the line, even just trying to nip out with a tiny 1500-2k on the clock in the dry can have front wheels scrabbling.
I hope they get better with age or it'll be bye bye Bridgestone come renewal.
quote:
But then again how many times have you been caught with the roof up when sunny because you couldn't be bothered with the fuss of removing it? & how many times have you returned home looking a little too well because you forgot the sunblock?
I think you pretty much summed up all the frustrations from my ownership with the Elise!
I did actually come back rather toasted after a frantic cross country dash last summer. I also found that if I knew I had to leave the roof up somewhere then I usually couldn't be bothered to take it off in the first place. I also worried constantly about where I had parked the car, would someone reverse into it with out seeing it? Was the roof on properly so as not to leak? Would some scroat slash the roof?
OK so maybe I was being a little bit paranoid!
But I did have to think ahead before doing anything with that car. As for the FWD grip problem I think maybe the tyres haven't been run in enough. I know it takes a few hundred miles for the surface of them to toughen and grip, but then again by the sounds of it you've been burning rubber so that should speed up the process!
I will hopefully have the chance next year to be invited to the Lotus dealership trackday (Well that's what he told me) so I will be able to get a good comparison as to the performance difference of the Honda. The Civic Type-R this year was beating nearly everything on the straights, the Civic even blasted past a 340R at one point which takes some effort to say the least!
Re: running in.....
I took delivery of an S2000 a week and a half ago and was told the same thing by the salesman "use it, abuse it, you'll do no harm and it'll thank you for it in the long run...".
Then I read the manual, it states categorically DO NOT vtec the car until 1000km/600miles. So I asked on the S2000 forum (s2ki.com) and was told the same thing - DO NOT vtec until the car is run in. The F20C engine in the S2000 is fibre reinforced aluminium and reportedly needs to be run in properly for the valve seals etc. to bed in.
Now, I don't know if the Civic engine is the same, but I wouldn't believe a word the salesman tells you, check the manual just in case...
How come you both went for the Civic after the Elise and not the S2000?
The Elise was on my short-list from day 1, but I found it too impractical for a daily driver (80 motorway miles to and from work) - then I found the S2000 which gave me a soft top (which takes 6 secs not 6 mins) but also a bit of practicality without losing too much handling.
I took delivery of an S2000 a week and a half ago and was told the same thing by the salesman "use it, abuse it, you'll do no harm and it'll thank you for it in the long run...".
Then I read the manual, it states categorically DO NOT vtec the car until 1000km/600miles. So I asked on the S2000 forum (s2ki.com) and was told the same thing - DO NOT vtec until the car is run in. The F20C engine in the S2000 is fibre reinforced aluminium and reportedly needs to be run in properly for the valve seals etc. to bed in.
Now, I don't know if the Civic engine is the same, but I wouldn't believe a word the salesman tells you, check the manual just in case...
How come you both went for the Civic after the Elise and not the S2000?
The Elise was on my short-list from day 1, but I found it too impractical for a daily driver (80 motorway miles to and from work) - then I found the S2000 which gave me a soft top (which takes 6 secs not 6 mins) but also a bit of practicality without losing too much handling.
As this will be my daily run about I will probably be quite cautious with it intially. So why on earth are the dealers giving out contradicting info about running it in?
Is there some huge conspiracy for them to make owners have more problems so as to get more work for their workshops?
Are Honda cars too reliable for the workshops to make any money?
Probably not, but I will have a word with my dealership when I pick the car up next week. As for me choosing the Civic instead of an S2000, I needed something practical and fast and the Civic was the best compromise. I hold the S2000 in high regard though, fab cars!
Is there some huge conspiracy for them to make owners have more problems so as to get more work for their workshops?
Are Honda cars too reliable for the workshops to make any money? Probably not, but I will have a word with my dealership when I pick the car up next week. As for me choosing the Civic instead of an S2000, I needed something practical and fast and the Civic was the best compromise. I hold the S2000 in high regard though, fab cars!
I use the car as my only transport & that is one of the reasons I chose the CTR over the Elise as I know I can rely totally on the Honda.
The Elise I owned was two years old when I bought it & a further year old when I came to sell it so out of warranty. I was sick of the chips on the front bumper, tired of being too warm when it was raining & you couldn't leave the window open for fear of getting wet, pissed off that I'd replaced a headlight when I bought it as the reflector was rusty & just twelve months later the same had happened again.
My budget was roughly what I could sell my Elise for plus a little & this did not equate to the thick end of the £25k an S2000 would cost. I also needed more space for the missus & dog, and to help me move house. The missus has a KA & while it is infinitely more capacious than the Elise, it is still not large enough.
On the running in front, I don't think it said anything about not using beyond the VTEC point for the first 600 miles. From my standpoint the warranty should cover any problems & can be extended to 6 years for just £295 including AA cover. Whilst the S2000 engine is obviously closely related to the one in the CTR & I am no expert, I don't think it is the same as they rev to different values & have different outputs based on the same capacity.
Is the S2000 engine designated as I-VTEC, as in the CTR?
I'll dig the manual out tonight and re-visit the running in.
That said, my old man bought a Bora 130TDI & was told that there were no special running in procedures. NOT the same, I know.
The Elise I owned was two years old when I bought it & a further year old when I came to sell it so out of warranty. I was sick of the chips on the front bumper, tired of being too warm when it was raining & you couldn't leave the window open for fear of getting wet, pissed off that I'd replaced a headlight when I bought it as the reflector was rusty & just twelve months later the same had happened again.
My budget was roughly what I could sell my Elise for plus a little & this did not equate to the thick end of the £25k an S2000 would cost. I also needed more space for the missus & dog, and to help me move house. The missus has a KA & while it is infinitely more capacious than the Elise, it is still not large enough.
On the running in front, I don't think it said anything about not using beyond the VTEC point for the first 600 miles. From my standpoint the warranty should cover any problems & can be extended to 6 years for just £295 including AA cover. Whilst the S2000 engine is obviously closely related to the one in the CTR & I am no expert, I don't think it is the same as they rev to different values & have different outputs based on the same capacity.
Is the S2000 engine designated as I-VTEC, as in the CTR?
I'll dig the manual out tonight and re-visit the running in.
That said, my old man bought a Bora 130TDI & was told that there were no special running in procedures. NOT the same, I know.
I know a lotus is not the same as a CTR but me and a friend bought 340Rs at the same time and were told not to trash them until 500 miles. My friend did as he was told, I admit that after 150 miles of being overtaken by fiat puntos I thought F##k it and redlined it from then on.
The result was 2000 miles later my car was alot quicker than his and flat out I would overtake him every time
The result was 2000 miles later my car was alot quicker than his and flat out I would overtake him every time
Right, I've dug out the manual & flicked through the hundreds of pages :--- 
Page 213 (how long would that take to get to???)
'Break in period
Help assure your car's furture reliability & performance by paying extra attention to how you drive during the first 600 miles.
During this period
-Avoid full throttle starts and rapid acceleration
-Avoid hard braking. New brakes need to be broken in by moderate use for the first 200 miles
-Do not change the oil until the recommended time or distance interval shown in the maintenance schedule.'
Full throttle starts & hard braking - not guilty your honour.
Rapid acceleration - ok, bang to rights
Changing oil?? - that's a strange one??
But why wasn't this printed in the introductory pages rather than on page 213 of 416?
Page 213 (how long would that take to get to???)
'Break in period
Help assure your car's furture reliability & performance by paying extra attention to how you drive during the first 600 miles.
During this period
-Avoid full throttle starts and rapid acceleration
-Avoid hard braking. New brakes need to be broken in by moderate use for the first 200 miles
-Do not change the oil until the recommended time or distance interval shown in the maintenance schedule.'
Full throttle starts & hard braking - not guilty your honour.
Rapid acceleration - ok, bang to rights
Changing oil?? - that's a strange one??
But why wasn't this printed in the introductory pages rather than on page 213 of 416?
special additive??What insurance group is the CTR?
I've always prefered the Audi S3 to the CTR, it just seems a little more classy and solid looking, even though its not as quick or as cheap.
Is there really such a thing as a 'giant killer' in the shape of a Hot hatch or is it a myth?
I read an article in Autocar (April 3rd 2002)which compared a TVR Tamora to a Peugeot 106 GTi, where they raced them on winding country roads.
(p52/53)
I know that this is just a 106 that they are talking about but is the CTR really as good as everyone says it is?.
It's got more power than an elise and it has a bigger engine (more torque)but is the handling better than an elise?
I've always prefered the Audi S3 to the CTR, it just seems a little more classy and solid looking, even though its not as quick or as cheap.
Is there really such a thing as a 'giant killer' in the shape of a Hot hatch or is it a myth?
I read an article in Autocar (April 3rd 2002)which compared a TVR Tamora to a Peugeot 106 GTi, where they raced them on winding country roads.
(p52/53)
quote:
" To say the Tamora blew the 106 away would not be entirely accurate. That is because it first dismantled the peugeot comprehensively, then threw each piece into the gutter and stamped on it, which was not quite what we were expecting"......"For starters, the Tamora's tyres could maintain grip around corners at speeds which the 106 driver couldn't even contemplate without risking everything"...."It's body control was vastly superior to the 106's"......."And no ammount of romanticizing about giant killers can alter that. Sorry to dispel the myth, folks, but it was time to put the record straight once and for all"
I know that this is just a 106 that they are talking about but is the CTR really as good as everyone says it is?.
It's got more power than an elise and it has a bigger engine (more torque)but is the handling better than an elise?
Mmmmm... not sure what Autocar were trying to prove by comparing the Tamora with the 106 GTi. I think they were posing the question of which was more fun which is totally subjective and impossible to resolve.
The CTR IMHO is actually more fun to drive than the Elise overall. Push the car to the limit and you'll get control of it again easily unlike the Elise which gives you a slap round the face and scares the **** out of you! OK so the CTR looks a bit like a squashed Manga cartoon character from some angles and it's not rear wheel drive but again IMHO it's a better compromise than the Elise.
During my ownership of the Elise so many things pissed me off that in the end I actually felt relieved to sell it and please take note this was my DREAM CAR. In the wet it was a nightmare to get anywhere quickly and you had to concentrate 100% to stop the back from stepping out in a corner or locking up the wheels when you braked. I actually had the back out step out of line at an indicated 20mph on a steep bend!!
I think the thing that convinced me that the CTR was the car for me was when a guy brought the Honda to a Lotus track day organised by my dealership. The Honda not only beat my standard Elise round the track but thrashed everything including Elise 135's, 160's and even the 340R!! It didn't have quite the ability of the Lotus cars in the corners but any hint of a straight and it beat everything else soundly.
As I mentioned before I have video footage of me half way down Lavant straight with this CTR breezing by as if I'm standing still. After my session was over I came back into the pits and had a good hard look at all the Lotus cars. Their owners were boasting about how they had this, that or the other put on or how much it had cost to get a few more BHP out of their engines. I than catch a glimpse of these two guys in their 16k jap box laughing at the lot of us.
They were having a great time embarassing everyone and they had the cheapest car there! From that moment on I took a long hard look at why I was running the Elise and realised I had compromised so much practicality and spent so much running and maintaining the car that it just wasn't worth it for what little performance there was.
It also came across to me that Honda seem to be selling this car purely to make a point and push forward the boundaries of hot hatches into performance car territory. OK the CTR is still not perfect, it does have a few compromises, but compared to my Elise it's a real quality piece of kit. When taking the test drives I noticed the door closed with a nice 'thunk' and just looking at how the interior was put together you just knew nothing was going to come loose or peel away. (Lotus should take note).
The attitude of the Honda dealership was also fantastic compared to the Lotus place. Their attitude towards the car was "If anything goes wrong then we'll sort it out, if you feel unhappy with anything, we'll do everything to listen to you". With the Lotus dealership it was more like "What the hell do you want us to do about it, it's your car and you probably made the problem occur on purpose anyway!".
So that's why I changed, I don't regret ever getting the Elise. It taught me so much about car control and improved my driving ability immeasurably, but ultimately I always wanted my own car to have the performance ability and not the attitude to go with it.
As for the CTR being a giant killer then in a way I think it is. It won't beat a TVR or any muscle car round a track but it has changed my whole perception of what a sports car is and IMHO how much anyone should spend or compromise for performance.
>> Edited by adeewuff on Thursday 9th May 23:43
The CTR IMHO is actually more fun to drive than the Elise overall. Push the car to the limit and you'll get control of it again easily unlike the Elise which gives you a slap round the face and scares the **** out of you! OK so the CTR looks a bit like a squashed Manga cartoon character from some angles and it's not rear wheel drive but again IMHO it's a better compromise than the Elise.
During my ownership of the Elise so many things pissed me off that in the end I actually felt relieved to sell it and please take note this was my DREAM CAR. In the wet it was a nightmare to get anywhere quickly and you had to concentrate 100% to stop the back from stepping out in a corner or locking up the wheels when you braked. I actually had the back out step out of line at an indicated 20mph on a steep bend!!
I think the thing that convinced me that the CTR was the car for me was when a guy brought the Honda to a Lotus track day organised by my dealership. The Honda not only beat my standard Elise round the track but thrashed everything including Elise 135's, 160's and even the 340R!! It didn't have quite the ability of the Lotus cars in the corners but any hint of a straight and it beat everything else soundly.
As I mentioned before I have video footage of me half way down Lavant straight with this CTR breezing by as if I'm standing still. After my session was over I came back into the pits and had a good hard look at all the Lotus cars. Their owners were boasting about how they had this, that or the other put on or how much it had cost to get a few more BHP out of their engines. I than catch a glimpse of these two guys in their 16k jap box laughing at the lot of us.
They were having a great time embarassing everyone and they had the cheapest car there! From that moment on I took a long hard look at why I was running the Elise and realised I had compromised so much practicality and spent so much running and maintaining the car that it just wasn't worth it for what little performance there was.
It also came across to me that Honda seem to be selling this car purely to make a point and push forward the boundaries of hot hatches into performance car territory. OK the CTR is still not perfect, it does have a few compromises, but compared to my Elise it's a real quality piece of kit. When taking the test drives I noticed the door closed with a nice 'thunk' and just looking at how the interior was put together you just knew nothing was going to come loose or peel away. (Lotus should take note).
The attitude of the Honda dealership was also fantastic compared to the Lotus place. Their attitude towards the car was "If anything goes wrong then we'll sort it out, if you feel unhappy with anything, we'll do everything to listen to you". With the Lotus dealership it was more like "What the hell do you want us to do about it, it's your car and you probably made the problem occur on purpose anyway!".
So that's why I changed, I don't regret ever getting the Elise. It taught me so much about car control and improved my driving ability immeasurably, but ultimately I always wanted my own car to have the performance ability and not the attitude to go with it.
As for the CTR being a giant killer then in a way I think it is. It won't beat a TVR or any muscle car round a track but it has changed my whole perception of what a sports car is and IMHO how much anyone should spend or compromise for performance.
>> Edited by adeewuff on Thursday 9th May 23:43
Have any of you checked out insurance quotes?
The Elise would have been ~£720 for me to insure with the cheapest company I could find (Tescos). I have insured my CTR with them for £770 & they were excellent. I did all of the work on-line & called them the next day to ask how long the cover note would take to reach me. I told them I couldn't wait three days for the note as I wanted to pick my car up & they printed me a copy off to pick up in Leeds just a mile away from where I work. I call that good service.
The Honda dealer was equally excellent. I arrived 15 minutes early to pick the car up & was desperate to get out & drive. I declined the free coffee & let them know I just wanted to jump in the car. Paid by Switch, a couple of signatures, introduction to the service staff & the obligatory 'this is a steering wheel' chat. 30 minutes later I was speeding away.
I think the article was trying to (dis)prove the myth that a well driven quality hot hatch can be as quick on real roads as a sports car. In the past I suppose it could hold true eg compare 1.9 205 vs early 80s 911.
A 911 driven by a numpty with no skills vs a 205 driven by a competent driver. Close?? or a Lancia Delta Integrale.
The 106 has not changed too much from the 205, but now the 911 is as safe as any car with an engine in the wrong place. The gap has been stretched?
The Elise would have been ~£720 for me to insure with the cheapest company I could find (Tescos). I have insured my CTR with them for £770 & they were excellent. I did all of the work on-line & called them the next day to ask how long the cover note would take to reach me. I told them I couldn't wait three days for the note as I wanted to pick my car up & they printed me a copy off to pick up in Leeds just a mile away from where I work. I call that good service.
The Honda dealer was equally excellent. I arrived 15 minutes early to pick the car up & was desperate to get out & drive. I declined the free coffee & let them know I just wanted to jump in the car. Paid by Switch, a couple of signatures, introduction to the service staff & the obligatory 'this is a steering wheel' chat. 30 minutes later I was speeding away.
I think the article was trying to (dis)prove the myth that a well driven quality hot hatch can be as quick on real roads as a sports car. In the past I suppose it could hold true eg compare 1.9 205 vs early 80s 911.
A 911 driven by a numpty with no skills vs a 205 driven by a competent driver. Close?? or a Lancia Delta Integrale.
The 106 has not changed too much from the 205, but now the 911 is as safe as any car with an engine in the wrong place. The gap has been stretched?
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