Should we ever extradite citizens to the USA?

[fluffnik]

I've just been listening to David Bermingham of the NatWest 3 on On the Ropes and it very much reinforced my opinion that we should never extradite citizens to the USA.

What do you think?

[grumbledoak]

Yes, of course we should. As long as they show us adequate evidence.
Their courts are no worse than ours.

[MX7]

Do we ever want someone extradited from the States?

[AndrewW-G]

Yes please, I have a couple of parking tickets from the last time I was there and would happily be extradited as long as they gave me a US passport / citizenship afterwards.

Serious answer is of course that people should only be extradited if there is a serious amount of evidence that they commited a crime on US soil

[fluffnik]

grumbledoak said:

Yes, of course we should. As long as they show us adequate evidence.
Their courts are no worse than ours.

On the contrary, the cost of mounting a defence in the USA is incompatible with justice as is their plea bargaining with menaces.

Much of their prison estate is designed for systematised torture.

[fluffnik]

AndrewW-G said:

Serious answer is of course that people should only be extradited if there is a serious amount of evidence that they commited a crime on US soil

I still don't think we should ever extradite anyone to anywhere with the death penalty.

...nor obscenities like SuperMax prisons.

[fluffnik]

MX7 said:

Do we ever want someone extradited from the States?

Yes, but they won't had over a citizen without us jumping through many, many more hoops.

[pilchardthecat]

fluffnik said:

Much of their prison estate is designed for systematised torture.

We could use some of that

[AndrewW-G]

fluffnik said:

AndrewW-G said:

Serious answer is of course that people should only be extradited if there is a serious amount of evidence that they commited a crime on US soil

I still don't think we should ever extradite anyone to anywhere with the death penalty.

...nor obscenities like SuperMax prisons.

The problem is that without extradition treaties, you end up with havens for a criminal element, Ronnie Biggs enjoying his freedom whilst technically on the run being a prime example.

I don’t necessarily agree with the death penalty, but in many cases it can be thought of as appropriate to the crimes that are punished by it . . . . . but that’s a whole other can of worms.

[ExChrispy Porker]

fluffnik said:

grumbledoak said:

Yes, of course we should. As long as they show us adequate evidence.
Their courts are no worse than ours.

On the contrary, the cost of mounting a defence in the USA is incompatible with justice as is their plea bargaining with menaces.

Much of their prison estate is designed for systematised torture.

The cost of mounting a defence here is just as bad - unless you are on legal aid, of course.

[fluffnik]

pilchardthecat said:

fluffnik said:

Much of their prison estate is designed for systematised torture.

We could use some of that

Deliberately destroying prisoners mental health?

It's not civilised, not even faintly.

[tinman0]

fluffnik said:

AndrewW-G said:

Serious answer is of course that people should only be extradited if there is a serious amount of evidence that they commited a crime on US soil

I still don't think we should ever extradite anyone to anywhere with the death penalty.

...nor obscenities like SuperMax prisons.

Oh noes, we put bad people in bad places, like prison....

Prison is meant to be a deterrent.

[pilchardthecat]

fluffnik said:

pilchardthecat said:

fluffnik said:

Much of their prison estate is designed for systematised torture.

We could use some of that

Deliberately destroying prisoners mental health?

It's not civilised, not even faintly.

It's more civilised than failing to punish them sufficiently, and then letting them out prematurely whilst sticking 2 fingers up at the victim, which is what we do over here.

[fluffnik]

ExChrispy Porker said:

The cost of mounting a defence here is just as bad - unless you are on legal aid, of course.

I think that is a big problem too.

At least you can claim it back if you win here...

[fluffnik]

tinman0 said:

Oh noes, we put bad people in bad places, like prison....

Prison is meant to be a deterrent.

Depriving people of their liberty is a massive punishment.

Deliberately driving them mad whilst incarcerated if frankly criminal.

[tinman0]

fluffnik said:

tinman0 said:

Oh noes, we put bad people in bad places, like prison....

Prison is meant to be a deterrent.

Depriving people of their liberty is a massive punishment.

Deliberately driving them mad whilst incarcerated if frankly criminal.

Well don't commit a crime then.

[mybrainhurts]

I'd be happy to send Russell Brand...

[fluffnik]

AndrewW-G said:

fluffnik said:

AndrewW-G said:

Serious answer is of course that people should only be extradited if there is a serious amount of evidence that they commited a crime on US soil

I still don't think we should ever extradite anyone to anywhere with the death penalty.

...nor obscenities like SuperMax prisons.

The problem is that without extradition treaties, you end up with havens for a criminal element, Ronnie Biggs enjoying his freedom whilst technically on the run being a prime example.

I think it would have made more sense to refuse Biggs (re)entry rather than waste resources trying to get him back. I think enforced exile is an excellent and inexpensive punishment...

AndrewW-G said:

I don’t necessarily agree with the death penalty, but in many cases it can be thought of as appropriate to the crimes that are punished by it . . . . . but that’s a whole other can of worms.

My view is that you cannot regard anywhere with the death penalty as truly civilised and we shouldn't be forcing citizens to leave civilization.

[davepoth]

fluffnik said:

On the contrary, the cost of mounting a defence in the USA is incompatible with justice as is their plea bargaining with menaces.

Much of their prison estate is designed for systematised torture.

I agree about their prisons. But as for your other statements, you clearly haven't been in court recently. All the CPS do these days is plea bargain with menaces.

[MX7]

fluffnik said:

MX7 said:

Do we ever want someone extradited from the States?

Yes, but they won't had over a citizen without us jumping through many, many more hoops.

I know. Do we ever want someone extradited from the States? If we do, we need to reciprocate. I'm sure that everyone thinks that the system needs some consideration, but terminating it wouldn't make sense.