MCSE - worth it?
Discussion
For the past 18 months or so, I've been considering working towards an MCSE. I've read that in the past that it wasn't considered particularly relevant, as the exams were relatively easy so every joe and his dog got one. I understand that's not the case anymore, but do employers view an MCSE favourably now?
I'm s/e at the min, but finding it increasingly difficult to remain so. I have been s/e for the last 15-odd years, so not sure whether plonking £4k on an MCSE would be a wise move.
It's not just the qualification I'm after though; it's obviously the knowledge, but also it tells the potential employer that I've studied in my own time, at my own expense, for this qualification. But does that mean anything to an employer?
I'm s/e at the min, but finding it increasingly difficult to remain so. I have been s/e for the last 15-odd years, so not sure whether plonking £4k on an MCSE would be a wise move.
It's not just the qualification I'm after though; it's obviously the knowledge, but also it tells the potential employer that I've studied in my own time, at my own expense, for this qualification. But does that mean anything to an employer?
What field are you currently self employed in?
To be honest, I hold very little regard for any of the MS qualifications because so many people have them.
Being able to do the job, under pressure and not piss people off is probably more important that knowing the maximum transmission length of Cat5e...
To be honest, I hold very little regard for any of the MS qualifications because so many people have them.
Being able to do the job, under pressure and not piss people off is probably more important that knowing the maximum transmission length of Cat5e...
ph_flyer said:
For the past 18 months or so, I've been considering working towards an MCSE. I've read that in the past that it wasn't considered particularly relevant, as the exams were relatively easy so every joe and his dog got one. I understand that's not the case anymore, but do employers view an MCSE favourably now?
I'm s/e at the min, but finding it increasingly difficult to remain so. I have been s/e for the last 15-odd years, so not sure whether plonking £4k on an MCSE would be a wise move.
It's not just the qualification I'm after though; it's obviously the knowledge, but also it tells the potential employer that I've studied in my own time, at my own expense, for this qualification. But does that mean anything to an employer?
I guarentee everyone on here will slag off the mcse but personally i found it essential for employers cos the majority of jobs i went for they go via hr first and they just bin everyone without certain quals. depends what job ure after - I found the microsoft courses good - yes anyone can get the exams by cheating but a decent employer should look past just the qualifications. 4k seems a lot will ure existing employer pay for it?
Why on earth would getting an MCSE cost £4k? 
I got mine simply by deciding which exam I wanted to do next, reading the study book and practicing the test questions and then booking the exam and passing. A doddle. Should cost you a few hundred quid tops if you already know your way round networks and MS software.
As for it's relevance, I've let mine lapse and I have no intention of refreshing it. Sure, the fact that someone's got an MCSE is a useful indicator of their basic level of experience but no way essential.
I got mine simply by deciding which exam I wanted to do next, reading the study book and practicing the test questions and then booking the exam and passing. A doddle. Should cost you a few hundred quid tops if you already know your way round networks and MS software.
As for it's relevance, I've let mine lapse and I have no intention of refreshing it. Sure, the fact that someone's got an MCSE is a useful indicator of their basic level of experience but no way essential.
No.
I pay no attention to manufacturers qualifications. Many people have them and much of their content is pointless, irrelevant to the real world or plain wrong (Are MS still examining on IP address classes when the whole world is using CIDR?). Also, many of the people who have these qualifications can (to quote my Dad) "Tell you the square root of a pickled onion, if only they could get the lid off the jar" - in other words they have no real-world experience.
I pay no attention to manufacturers qualifications. Many people have them and much of their content is pointless, irrelevant to the real world or plain wrong (Are MS still examining on IP address classes when the whole world is using CIDR?). Also, many of the people who have these qualifications can (to quote my Dad) "Tell you the square root of a pickled onion, if only they could get the lid off the jar" - in other words they have no real-world experience.
zumbruk said:
No.
I pay no attention to manufacturers qualifications. Many people have them and much of their content is pointless, irrelevant to the real world or plain wrong (Are MS still examining on IP address classes when the whole world is using CIDR?). Also, many of the people who have these qualifications can (to quote my Dad) "Tell you the square root of a pickled onion, if only they could get the lid off the jar" - in other words they have no real-world experience.
Thats a bit of a huge generallisation. Whilst I would agree that MCSE's are de-valued (mainly because a blind monkey can administer MS software, all you need to know is ctrl-alt-del!!). However, other qualifications are valid and sometimes highly valuable. Most firewall/load balancing quals, would fall into this category (F5, Nokia etc).
That said, I tend to use then as brownie points rather then a requirement. As plotloss pointed out, the individual's personality plays the largest part, lets face it there are some real
ing retards working in IT would may have the technical skill-set but you'd want to keep them away from customers in a dark cupboard!!) Steve
Plotloss: IT consultant (with all that that entails 
). Hardware, software, networks, etc.
What's brought it back to my consciousness is that I did a major update to some bespoke application software that I wrote a couple of years ago. When installing it, I found the p/t "consultant" (family member) who had updated their infrastructure had made a pigs ear of it. Many things wrong, but one particular thing I picked up on was that he had a complete misunderstanding of Exchange and backup procedures. I've documented my findings and recommendations, but felt that they would carry more weight with a professional qualification behind them. Looking ahead slightly, my concerns were as billb says, will it help to get you at least an interview?
billb: I'll be paying for it (through my own company).
Bonce: Ahem! I was thinking of doing a boot camp. So, in your (and billb) experience, they are suitable for self-study? I know there are strong opinions on boot camps
zumbruk: Nice analogy and very true. But what if you know how to take a lid off, know the square root, but the 20 or so chaps before you have a certificate from the Pickle Foundation stating that they know, but you don't have one?
). Hardware, software, networks, etc. What's brought it back to my consciousness is that I did a major update to some bespoke application software that I wrote a couple of years ago. When installing it, I found the p/t "consultant" (family member) who had updated their infrastructure had made a pigs ear of it. Many things wrong, but one particular thing I picked up on was that he had a complete misunderstanding of Exchange and backup procedures. I've documented my findings and recommendations, but felt that they would carry more weight with a professional qualification behind them. Looking ahead slightly, my concerns were as billb says, will it help to get you at least an interview?
billb: I'll be paying for it (through my own company).
Bonce: Ahem! I was thinking of doing a boot camp. So, in your (and billb) experience, they are suitable for self-study? I know there are strong opinions on boot camps
zumbruk: Nice analogy and very true. But what if you know how to take a lid off, know the square root, but the 20 or so chaps before you have a certificate from the Pickle Foundation stating that they know, but you don't have one?
ph_flyer said:
Plotloss: IT consultant (with all that that entails
What's brought it back to my consciousness is that I did a major update to some bespoke application software that I wrote a couple of years ago. When installing it, I found the p/t "consultant" (family member) who had updated their infrastructure had made a pigs ear of it. Many things wrong, but one particular thing I picked up on was that he had a complete misunderstanding of Exchange and backup procedures. I've documented my findings and recommendations, but felt that they would carry more weight with a professional qualification behind them. Looking ahead slightly, my concerns were as billb says, will it help to get you at least an interview?
billb: I'll be paying for it (through my own company).
Bonce: Ahem! I was thinking of doing a boot camp. So, in your (and billb) experience, they are suitable for self-study? I know there are strong opinions on boot camps
zumbruk: Nice analogy and very true. But what if you know how to take a lid off, know the square root, but the 20 or so chaps before you have a certificate from the Pickle Foundation stating that they know, but you don't have one?
boot camp is a complete waste of time cos if all you want is the qualifications then just go to www.mcsebraindumps.com and just learn the answers and take the tests.
depending on what you want to do i'd recommend a few courses and do the rest self study if u must cos not only do the courses teach u how to do things the msoft way u meet lots of people in the same field and can swap experience etc. most training places will knock off a lot of cost of the courses if u argue a bit or if u do it last minute as they're more than happy to fill the places. for those that dont think mcse helps to get the job then type in mcse in jobserve and see how many jobs require it - doesnt mean u can do the job though
ph_flyer said:
Bonce: Ahem! I was thinking of doing a boot camp. So, in your (and billb) experience, they are suitable for self-study? I know there are strong opinions on boot camps
Absolutely! If you know your way round a computer you will have nor problem reading the stuff to learn the style of question that you're likely to face and then going to the exam and knocking out a few multiple choice questions.
This is in my personal opinion of course, I have never experienced the bootcamp approach so I guess it suits some people better. However, if I was paying the bill, then I would save £3600 for a couple of nice holidays and some snazzy consumer electronics.
ph_flyer said:
Bonce: Ahem! I was thinking of doing a boot camp. So, in your (and billb) experience, they are suitable for self-study? I know there are strong opinions on boot camps
Bootcamps basically _are_ self-study - they're trying to cover 5 or 6 modules worth of stuff in a fraction of the time it would normally take. They do that by giving you a load of books beforehand and demand that you've taken all that info in before the course starts. Then you very quickly skim through the material before the exams.
As Bonce says, the books aren't expensive (can be obtained cheaply secondhand too), the exams are about 90 quid each (can just register with VUE or Prometric and do them as an individual), it needs as much work as the bootcamp approach but you save a load of money. If you get stuck, anyone who can use google can find the answer, or if you're really stuck there are plenty of newgroups and forums to ask on.
You still see a lot of contracts advertised requiring MCSE so yes it is worth it. However the most important caveat is experience. The latest MCSE's are pretty technical compared to the original NT4 joke exams. Microsoft really did step up after they were slated because some people passed without any real IT knowledge.
apeebles said:
You still see a lot of contracts advertised requiring MCSE so yes it is worth it. However the most important caveat is experience. The latest MCSE's are pretty technical compared to the original NT4 joke exams. Microsoft really did step up after they were slated because some people passed without any real IT knowledge.
I agree. My 2003 MCSE has certainly opened a few doors. In my opinion, it'll at least get you an interview, at which point experience will take over.
I've done them all (MCSE 3.51 to 2003-Cisco-Checkpoint-Citrix) and in my opinion the Cisco exams are head and shoulders above the rest and Microsoft have certainly raised the bar recently to make them 2nd best. I know of very technical, competent people who have failed the MCSE 2003 exams and in my opinion the value of the certification can only rise from here.
I'd also say that they're especially valuable to contractors given that companies tend to recruit them to fill skills gaps.
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