NT - 2003 and exchange upgrade opinions

[malman]

I have an underfunded NT4 network with Exchange 5.5 for about 50 users. It has a PDC running exchange and file/print. I have BDC running file and print and some telnet based services. Member server running more telnet stuff and Oracle.

I have a nice shiny new Xeon server to replace the old PDC server. I would like to take the oportunity to upgrade to 2003 server / Exchange 2003.

The question is do I do an inplace upgrade by restoring a copy of the PDC onto the new server or do I go via the migrate route install 2003 on new server upgrade to active directory then put exchange 2003 and add it to my 5.5 site and use the move mailbox stuff.

I have perfected the technique of resoring NT4 installs to different hardware (SCSI boot device drivers / replace HAL for Multiprocessor version) so no problems with cloning the PDC to new harware.

Any opinions, experience or pointers to upgrade plan docs gratefully received.

Thanks

Neil

[_DJ_]

I'm not sure both of your options will work!
You need to upgrade the PDC first in any NT-AD upgrade. You can't install Exchange 2003 without an AD.

So, your options would be:

1) Upgrade current PDC to Win2k3. Install Win2k3 on new server and install Exchange 2003. Transfer FSMO roles off first server to new one. Decommision old one. Move mailboxess

or

2) Clone PDC to new hardware. Decommision old server. Upgrade to Windows 2003. Upgrade Exchange 5.5 to 2003 (after setting up the ADC etc).

or

3) Do a traditional migration (using SidHistory). This will also give you the opportunity to introduce a new domain name and tidy up user accounts whilst retaining rollback ability. This may also be required if you look at SBS

Personally, I'd prefer to see a fresh install of Exchange and Windows because:

1) The cloning procedure would never be supported by Microsoft

2) Upgrades have been known to cause problems.

Also, have you considered using Small Business Server (can't remember the user limit, it may be < 50)

Darren

>> Edited by _DJ_ on Thursday 29th April 13:06

[malman]

I'm leaning towards the clean install route if possible.

I forgot to mention that I can't upgrade the PDC to 2k3. 1) no disk space 2) Exchange 5.5 doesn't run on 2k3 neither does Exchange 2000 (cheers M$).

So I think option 1 is dead

Option 2 would have to be
Clone PDC to new machine, upgrade to windows 200 to get AD, upgrade to Exchange 2000, then Exchange 2003(no direct upgrade from 5.5 I think), then Windows 2003 (yeerrghh messy)

So option 3 is looking like the plan. I have never done this but I beleive it would go something like this.

Take BDC offline incase it all goes titsup.
Install 2003 on new machine
Migrate PDC accounts to 2003
PDC gets demoted to BDC?(not sure about this bit)
Check all is OK
Put BDC back online

This gets me AD running but with NT4 BDCs and exchange 5.5 still running email on the old PDC NT4

On new machine
Use Active directory connector to populate AD from 5.5 directory.
Install Exchange 2003 (forest prep /domain prep first)
Add new 2k3 to exchange 5.5 site and move the mailbox and public folders to new 2k3 server
de-commision exchange 5.5 (not sure how)
move all file/print to new server.
take OLD PDC home and use it to prop open a door

Does this look about right or am I missing something?

Ooh! it all sounds so simple


Yeah I like SBS and have installed a number for customers but don't really want to be limited by 50 users. The new 2003 version is very nice. I know you can upgrade to full versions later but SBS2003 is basically file print, exchange and some nice reports/wizards. I can live without reports/wizards.



>> Edited by malman on Thursday 29th April 13:50

[_DJ_]

nooooooooo. Either I don't understand your explanation or that's not going to work.

The problem is, you've got a domain controller and exchange 5.5 box together - bad plan.

So, you've got 2 choices:

1) rejig things so that exchange and dc and nolonger together.

This would necessitate taking a BDC offline, upgrading the PDC to Windows 2000, upgrading a BDC to 2000, transferring roles to old BDC and demoting old PDC. You could then upgrade to 2003 AD and move mailboxes onto a new Exchange 2003 server (exchange 5.5 will work against a 2k3 domain, just not on a 2k3 server).

2) cut your losses, build a new domain and exchange setup and migrate into it.


Darren.

[jam1et]

malman said:

Yeah I like SBS but don't really want to be limited by 50 users.

2003 version supports 70 users. Perhaps this might change your opinion?

_DJ_ said:

nooooooooo. Either I don't understand your explanation or that's not going to work. The problem is, you've got a domain controller and exchange 5.5 box together - bad plan.

Works fine on SBS. Although I supose if one had the choice its better to go for separate machines purely because if one piece of software (e.g your info store) goes tits up its easier to restore.

[_DJ_]

jam1et said:

malman said: Yeah I like SBS but don't really want to be limited by 50 users. 2003 version supports 70 users. Perhaps this might change your opinion? _DJ_ said: nooooooooo. Either I don't understand your explanation or that's not going to work. The problem is, you've got a domain controller and exchange 5.5 box together - bad plan. Works fine on SBS. Although I supose if one had the choice its better to go for separate machines purely because if one piece of software (e.g your info store) goes tits up its easier to restore.

The point was:

- We want Windows 2003 and Exchange 2003.

They both run on the same machine without a problem.
However, as he currently has NT4 and Exchange 5.5 there is no direct upgrade route(as the first machine in the domain to be upgraded must be the PDC, and his runs Exchange. Exchange 5.5 doesn't run on w2k3).

[malman]

Just re re-read it, don't think I explained it very well.

Take BDC offline incase it all goes titsup.
Install Windows2003 on new machine
Upgrade domain to 2003 AD using migrate method (can' remember name of tool but remember something to do with SIDhistory here)
NT4 PDC is no longer a PDC as the domain PDC is now on 2003 box. I think it gets demoted to a BDC?(not sure about this bit)
Check all is OK
Put original BDC back online to sync with 2003 AD

This gets me AD running but with NT4 BDCs and exchange 5.5 still running email on the old NT4 box which is no longer a PDC. Exchange should be happy as its just looking for a domain controller of the original domain.


SBS up to 70 users now. Still this would be option 4 chuck it all in the bin and rebuild domain from scratch. I think I'd rather go through the pain of a migrate.

Option 5 just sprang to mind.... get a job somewhere else and leave this as a present for my replacement

[jam1et]

Yeah DJ, I see what you mean.

I would go with DJ's option 2. It will give you a chance to get rid of all the crap and mistakes you've made in the past. Perhaps a bit more work in the long run though (Less to go wrong though).

>> Edited by jam1et on Thursday 29th April 15:46

[_DJ_]

malman said:

Just re re-read it, don't think I explained it very well. Take BDC offline incase it all goes titsup. Install Windows2003 on new machine Upgrade domain to 2003 AD using migrate method (can' remember name of tool but remember something to do with SIDhistory here) NT4 PDC is no longer a PDC as the domain PDC is now on 2003 box. I think it gets demoted to a BDC?(not sure about this bit) Check all is OK Put original BDC back online to sync with 2003 AD This gets me AD running but with NT4 BDCs and exchange 5.5 still running email on the old NT4 box which is no longer a PDC. Exchange should be happy as its just looking for a domain controller of the original domain. SBS up to 70 users now. Still this would be option 4 chuck it all in the bin and rebuild domain from scratch. I think I'd rather go through the pain of a migrate. Option 5 just sprang to mind.... get a job somewhere else and leave this as a present for my replacement

Still don't get it I'm afraid.

You mention upgrading to 2003 via the upgrade method using SidHistory. That makes no sense to me at all. SidHistory is used to create 'security equivalence'.

i.e user in domainA = user in domainB. It's rarely used within a domain.

You seem to be confusing the two concepts, you either:

1) setup a new domain and use SID history to provide access back to the old domain whilst you migrate all resources in to the new domain.

2) Upgrade the existing domain (in place upgrade). Obviously this will not use SidHistory as it's not required.


edited to add: If you want a conversation about this, mail me offline and I'll give you my number.


>> Edited by _DJ_ on Thursday 29th April 16:37

[malman]

Yep your right I'm talking sh1te. What I was thinking is called a domain restructure and uses ADMT but I thought I could preserve the domain as it were but if I could do that then why would I need sidhistory Duh!. Not thinking

As you say I need to do an in-place upgrade but can't because of Exchange being on the PDC and the PDC must be upgraded first. I will install the new server with NT4 as a BDC and then promote it to be the PDC therefore splitting the Exchange and PDC role. I should then be able to upgrade to Windows2003 on the new PDC and put Exhange 2003 on and migrate the mailboxes over to the new server.

Cheers for the offer

[_DJ_]

Sounds like you've got is sussed. I'd try and juggle the machines so the 2003 DC's aren't upgrades and are built from scratch if at all possible. Any problems, drop me a mail.

Darren.

[malman]

Ahh yes knock up any old piece of crap as a NT4 PDC. Upgrade that to win2003 Install new xeon as fresh win2003 add it as DC to domain and transfer all the roles over thus ending up with a clean installed DC.

Any more flaming hoops M$ would like me to jump through

I love networks really --- honest --- they pay for my cerbera anyway (but only just)

[_DJ_]

malman said:

Ahh yes knock up any old piece of crap as a NT4 PDC. Upgrade that to win2003 Install new xeon as fresh win2003 add it as DC to domain and transfer all the roles over thus ending up with a clean installed DC. Any more flaming hoops M$ would like me to jump through I love networks really --- honest --- they pay for my cerbera anyway (but only just)

more hoops = more money = better TVR's
If only it were that simple!

[_DJ_]

malman said:

Ahh yes knock up any old piece of crap as a NT4 PDC. Upgrade that to win2003 Install new xeon as fresh win2003 add it as DC to domain and transfer all the roles over thus ending up with a clean installed DC. Any more flaming hoops M$ would like me to jump through I love networks really --- honest --- they pay for my cerbera anyway (but only just)

more hoops = more money = better TVR's
If only it were that simple!