New engine or new car?
Discussion
Hi Pistonheads. I feel the need to share my quandry with you.
I'm stuck between the option of buying a new car, or sticking a decent engine in the MX5.
Aiming to get something in the region of 250hp out of it with an option to go further if the need arises, so I'm thinking something turbocharged. Also, I don't particularly want to mess too much with the balance of the car, so little or no added weight would be a big bonus.
I know the Lotus guys seem to have a panchant for Audi engines, which seem to tick the boxes I require, but then Loti are mid mounted unlike the MX5. How much of a problem does this cause?
A guy at my work suggested Saab engines.
A nice idea would be a rotary from the RX7, but for some reason I think this would be more costly than either of the above, would it?
My problem is I don't have the slightest idea what is required or how much it would cost - purchase of engine, mounting, new gearbox (I assume), anything else would need to be done?
Point to note is that this would all have to be done by someone else (garage of some description) as I have zero clue when it comes to "big stuff" like this.
Or, I could ditch the Mazda and go for something Caterfieldorsomethingish. Do Caterham's actually go over speed bumps? I use the Mazda quite a bit so real world driving is an issue.
So basically, I'm asking what options on engine do I have - anything more appropriate than the above? How much would one typically set aside for an engine swap including the price of the engine? Or would it be economically unfeasible to do so and I may as well just go buy a Caterham?
In my mind I slightly perfer the idea of an MX5 with more power, for reasons I cannot quite put my finger on. Unfortunately my bank balance often overrules what I *want*
Thanks for reading and any suggestions.
I'm stuck between the option of buying a new car, or sticking a decent engine in the MX5.
Aiming to get something in the region of 250hp out of it with an option to go further if the need arises, so I'm thinking something turbocharged. Also, I don't particularly want to mess too much with the balance of the car, so little or no added weight would be a big bonus.
I know the Lotus guys seem to have a panchant for Audi engines, which seem to tick the boxes I require, but then Loti are mid mounted unlike the MX5. How much of a problem does this cause?
A guy at my work suggested Saab engines.
A nice idea would be a rotary from the RX7, but for some reason I think this would be more costly than either of the above, would it?
My problem is I don't have the slightest idea what is required or how much it would cost - purchase of engine, mounting, new gearbox (I assume), anything else would need to be done?
Point to note is that this would all have to be done by someone else (garage of some description) as I have zero clue when it comes to "big stuff" like this.
Or, I could ditch the Mazda and go for something Caterfieldorsomethingish. Do Caterham's actually go over speed bumps? I use the Mazda quite a bit so real world driving is an issue.
So basically, I'm asking what options on engine do I have - anything more appropriate than the above? How much would one typically set aside for an engine swap including the price of the engine? Or would it be economically unfeasible to do so and I may as well just go buy a Caterham?
In my mind I slightly perfer the idea of an MX5 with more power, for reasons I cannot quite put my finger on. Unfortunately my bank balance often overrules what I *want*
Thanks for reading and any suggestions.
Saab engines are a very cheap way to plenty of power, but they're all FWD so I'm not sure what your gearbox options are. I think the RX7 engine will be a very expensive option for what you get as there's not many about. Scorpio (Cosworth)V6 and a Sierra box would be how I'd do it - only 200ish hp but cheap and a good engine.
I LOVE my turbo'd 5. Its a daily driver and I honestly can't ever see me parting with it. Turbo your existing car and (assuming its a good 'un) you won't be disappointed.
However if you want over 250bhp (Which IMO would be A LOT in a '5 if you are using it as a daily driver) I think you'd need to be lookign at uprating rods and pistons.
However if you want over 250bhp (Which IMO would be A LOT in a '5 if you are using it as a daily driver) I think you'd need to be lookign at uprating rods and pistons.
When I had an MX5 many years ago superchargers were all the rage and there were quite a few reasonably priced kits around. Not sure if they make the big numbers you are after but worth a look. Failing that call BBR and get a quote for a big turbo upgrade.
Get over to the owners club, they will have lots of advice and people running more power. There's at least one chevvy V8 out there but that is stupidly expensive.
Get over to the owners club, they will have lots of advice and people running more power. There's at least one chevvy V8 out there but that is stupidly expensive.
Nissan SR20DET
Found in S14 and S15 200sx's (silvia)
Puts out about 215bhp IIRC from the top of my head, and can very easily be tuned for massive power increase
HOWEVER most silvias came with an auto box, and manual ones aren't that easy to find. That's what I've been told anyway.
But if you can find a manual, they're solid engines and big gains in power can be made.
Found in S14 and S15 200sx's (silvia)
Puts out about 215bhp IIRC from the top of my head, and can very easily be tuned for massive power increase
HOWEVER most silvias came with an auto box, and manual ones aren't that easy to find. That's what I've been told anyway.
But if you can find a manual, they're solid engines and big gains in power can be made.
Having a similar discussion on the PPC forum.
LS1 engines fit in an MX5 chassis and only weigh 5kg more than the original lump.
The SAAB 2.3 can be tuned to over 500bhp fit a Vauxhall Omega gear box either with a 2.0 Omega or dry sump.
200SX transplants can be cheap if you buy the whole car and sell the parts you don't use.
I'd be tempted to put a 13B turbo from an RX7 or an N/A 13B with a Supercharger for more drivability. The progessive boost from a supercharger suits the smooth power delivery of a rotary in my opinion better than the all boost or nothing turbo set up.
Whatever you decide to do make sure you do a build thread.
LS1 engines fit in an MX5 chassis and only weigh 5kg more than the original lump.
The SAAB 2.3 can be tuned to over 500bhp fit a Vauxhall Omega gear box either with a 2.0 Omega or dry sump.
200SX transplants can be cheap if you buy the whole car and sell the parts you don't use.
I'd be tempted to put a 13B turbo from an RX7 or an N/A 13B with a Supercharger for more drivability. The progessive boost from a supercharger suits the smooth power delivery of a rotary in my opinion better than the all boost or nothing turbo set up.
Whatever you decide to do make sure you do a build thread.
Thanks guys.
Hairy - I love the sound of a nice V6, but wouldn't they necessarily be a bit heavy?
Sneaky - that's precisely what's inspired it, current engine is pretty knackered - +200k on the clock and has started smoking at high revs. I figured I'll be looking at a new engine to get any serious power, therefore I'm considering my options on which engine. I hadn't really considered the idea of swapping for a 1.8 MX5 engine and then turbo-ing that.
Mr MXT - It's probably best described (for now) as an every-other-day drive. I have another car which I also like and intend to keep. It is the Anti-MX5. A big roly-poly, leather clad Mercedes 250 horse is an arbitrary figure I arrived at which would indeed be plenty, but why have plenty when you can have far too much! Seriously though I figured 250 would probably do, but then I'm the sort of person that always wants more and would like to keep my options open.
Bigdods, yes I have seen the LS powered Miata in the 'states
unfortunately I think I would be prohibitively expensive
Hairy - I love the sound of a nice V6, but wouldn't they necessarily be a bit heavy?
Sneaky - that's precisely what's inspired it, current engine is pretty knackered - +200k on the clock and has started smoking at high revs. I figured I'll be looking at a new engine to get any serious power, therefore I'm considering my options on which engine. I hadn't really considered the idea of swapping for a 1.8 MX5 engine and then turbo-ing that.
Mr MXT - It's probably best described (for now) as an every-other-day drive. I have another car which I also like and intend to keep. It is the Anti-MX5. A big roly-poly, leather clad Mercedes
250 horse is an arbitrary figure I arrived at which would indeed be plenty, but why have plenty when you can have far too much! Seriously though I figured 250 would probably do, but then I'm the sort of person that always wants more and would like to keep my options open.Bigdods, yes I have seen the LS powered Miata in the 'states
unfortunately I think I would be prohibitively expensivemaniac0796 said:
Nissan SR20DET
Found in S14 and S15 200sx's (silvia)
Puts out about 215bhp IIRC from the top of my head, and can very easily be tuned for massive power increase
HOWEVER most silvias came with an auto box, and manual ones aren't that easy to find. That's what I've been told anyway.
But if you can find a manual, they're solid engines and big gains in power can be made.
Ahh! I had thought of the Silvia engine, I had also forgotten this option. Thank you for reminding me!Found in S14 and S15 200sx's (silvia)
Puts out about 215bhp IIRC from the top of my head, and can very easily be tuned for massive power increase
HOWEVER most silvias came with an auto box, and manual ones aren't that easy to find. That's what I've been told anyway.
But if you can find a manual, they're solid engines and big gains in power can be made.
Liquid Knight said:
The SAAB 2.3 can be tuned to over 500bhp fit a Vauxhall Omega gear box either with a 2.0 Omega or dry sump.
Sounds very intriguing! I do agree a smooth power delivery would be nice. I do like the confidence to be powering on through corners. Supercharging may well be an option.My original plan was actually going with something V-Teccy, which would have the benefit of much revving enjoyment. I daresay ~200 horse would again, probably be plenty but am not sure if it would remain plenty after a few months of enjoyment and am unsure of the upgrade potential of the engine.
If your not DIYing I think the cost is likely to be prohibitive for most options (relative to the cost of the car) best option would be a fresh low mile mx5 engine and then supercharge or turbo it. This could probably be done for under £2k (including labour). Most other options I would guess would cost considerably more once you factor in labour for all the custom fabrication. Personally for the costs involved I would be considering selling up and throwing the cash at something faster to start with.
mikey P 500 said:
If your not DIYing I think the cost is likely to be prohibitive for most options (relative to the cost of the car) best option would be a fresh low mile mx5 engine and then supercharge or turbo it. This could probably be done for under £2k (including labour). Most other options I would guess would cost considerably more once you factor in labour for all the custom fabrication. Personally for the costs involved I would be considering selling up and throwing the cash at something faster to start with.
Hi Mikey, thanks for the input with regards to the cost issue.Okay so simple math, 2k for new engine, 5k for BBR turbo conversion fitted, 7k.
For a nicely sorted Caterham/Westfield/Elise, from a quick look at the classified, we're talking £10k+. I'm not really looking at resale value, therefore the underlying value of the car would be (to me) the cost of something similarly fast & fun. (self-justification/man-logic, call it what you will)
Or, what else could you suggest for less than 10k which is fun, fast and open top? We're talking lightweight & nimble but with enough power (whatever that is).
To be clear though, 10k is not my budget, it was merely the price of the front-running alternative.
Collaudatore said:
Stuff.
Ok, a few things to look at here.First, if your original engine is on 200K the it's past doing much with. What's the rest of the car like? At that mileage I'd imagine the suspension could be tired and the dreaded tin worm may have set in?
Engine transplant v change of car would depend very much on the overall condition of the car and what work/money you wish to put in.
In terms of engine upgrades then the most obvious choice is to start with a lower mileage MX-5 lump. Preferably a 1.8. IIRC some of the later engines had different heads and variable valve timing. I can't remember much about those so lets assume the basics.
Upgrades to the MX5 lump inlude all the usual NA tuning or forced induction which is either supercharger or turbo upgrades.
Home brew or off the shelf kits are well documented but you should take a few hours and digest www.flyinmiata.com These guys seem to be the authority on MX5 upgrades and many an hour/email I've spent and sent on there (I ruled out ordering one of their kits due to my car needing new sills and subsequent change of car). One area I would pay particular attention to is the piggy back engine management you'll need to run a reliable conversion, the better this is (and subsequent mapping sessions) then the better the car will be. The actual hardware isn't overly complicated/ Turbo, manifold, intercooler etc. You'll want a new exhaust and of course, an upgraded clutch. Flyin Miata and most of the forums cover this on both home brew type kits and off the shelf versions which are obviously alot more money but less hassle.
Very complete and surprisingly quick cars have been developed with forced induction and the original engine. Standard engines will happily run a shade over 200BHP, built engines (Forged rods, pistons etc) can be over 300BHP and a few nutters have had close to 600BHP. 200BHP in a MX5 will be enough for most situations and the longevity of the gearbox won't be as much an issue.
I guess the car is well suited to other possible engine conversions but with the standard engine being so useful why bother? The only one I would consider is the Chevy LS but that is into very serious territory in terms of the actual build and money involved. Again I'd forget Saab and Rotary engines due to the probable ball ache factor. I did get a close look at a S14 engined car but I wasn't impressed with the packaging or potential gains offered.
Of course you could just wait until the current engine expires and buy a Caterham etc or bung in a lower mileage engine and enjoy another 200K
Edited by v8will on Tuesday 25th January 21:27
Liquid Knight said:
Volvo T5 on a 940 manual box. If you want to save a bit of weight a T4 with a T5 turbo. 
Hmm ruin that snappy MX5 gearchange with a 940 change. The T5 is probably too long anyway and the Turbo isn't anything special (Not according to the size of the standard 15G I have lying in the garage)Keep the T5 conversions for Volvo 700/900 series cars.
Collaudatore said:
My original plan was actually going with something V-Teccy, which would have the benefit of much revving enjoyment. I daresay ~200 horse would again, probably be plenty but am not sure if it would remain plenty after a few months of enjoyment and am unsure of the upgrade potential of the engine.
You could, but to be honest I reckon you could start with a solid older Honda S2000 and upgrade bits to a high standard and make it handle well for far less than the cost of an engine/gearbox transplant in the MX5. Depends how keen you are to keep the MX5.
blearyeyedboy said:
Collaudatore said:
My original plan was actually going with something V-Teccy, which would have the benefit of much revving enjoyment. I daresay ~200 horse would again, probably be plenty but am not sure if it would remain plenty after a few months of enjoyment and am unsure of the upgrade potential of the engine.
You could, but to be honest I reckon you could start with a solid older Honda S2000 and upgrade bits to a high standard and make it handle well for far less than the cost of an engine/gearbox transplant in the MX5. Depends how keen you are to keep the MX5.Collaudatore said:
mikey P 500 said:
If your not DIYing I think the cost is likely to be prohibitive for most options (relative to the cost of the car) best option would be a fresh low mile mx5 engine and then supercharge or turbo it. This could probably be done for under £2k (including labour). Most other options I would guess would cost considerably more once you factor in labour for all the custom fabrication. Personally for the costs involved I would be considering selling up and throwing the cash at something faster to start with.
Hi Mikey, thanks for the input with regards to the cost issue.Okay so simple math, 2k for new engine, 5k for BBR turbo conversion fitted, 7k.
For a nicely sorted Caterham/Westfield/Elise, from a quick look at the classified, we're talking £10k+. I'm not really looking at resale value, therefore the underlying value of the car would be (to me) the cost of something similarly fast & fun. (self-justification/man-logic, call it what you will)
Or, what else could you suggest for less than 10k which is fun, fast and open top? We're talking lightweight & nimble but with enough power (whatever that is).
To be clear though, 10k is not my budget, it was merely the price of the front-running alternative.
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