Armed Forces 'allowance cuts'

[Eddw86]

In the Telegraph this morning, doesn't seem to have got as much coverage as I thought it would.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politic...

Thoughts?

[DieselGriff]

I'm not sure how it will affect current service people but in my father's day (22 years RAF) then overseas allowance went from "essential" (early 70's) to "It means I can buy a new car"* (late 80's).

Whilst I am very pro-armed forces (largely due to my upbringing) I do wonder if these allowances are necessary, and if they really are why not increase pay?

• We bought our car via the NAAFI at the time one of the biggest single buyers of goods and services in Europe - they would negotiate some great discounts but were non-profit making. It also meant that as an 18 year old I could go out and buy 10 pints of Warsteiner for 10DM - about £3 at the time.

[eccles]

The way i read that article is that the forces have made a rod for their own back. When the economy was good they couldn't get people to join up, so they up the pay and allowances to make things more attractive.
Whoopy doo, they're cutting back on travel warrants from 12 down to 10..... we used to get 4! Some weird thing called get you home early allowance for youngters....I joined up at 16 and didn't get anything like this.
Some lieutenant colonel is moaning about losing nearly £3k a year at the money he's on!

[andy400]

I can still remember, shortly after I joined up (some years ago now), we had a 'pay & finance' lecture. One very good point made at the time was to never count allowances and supplements as part of your income and to budget using your main salary only.

Pretty obvious stuff, and perhaps requiring a little bit of discipline, but far too many seem to have proved unequal to the task.

I don't agree with all the changes, but a bit of rationalisation is long overdue. Far too many aviators, for just one example, claiming ££££ of flying pay when it is obvious to all that they will never pilot anything other than a desk for the rest of their career.

CEA (aka boarding school allowance) is another area that needs to be tightened up. Many deserving cases, but also far too many playing the system and taking the piss to enjoy cut-price top-notch private education, and CEA represents a pretty big spend each year.

All just IMO, natch.

[raf_gti]

I feel I'm well qualified to comment on this story.

As another poster has alluded to back in t'day the allowances package was very generous, especially with an overseas posting, if you were living in Germany especially you would make a substantial amount extra over your basic pay, combine that with VAT free sales and you can imagine the lifestyle that could be had!

Bearing in mind there are still 25000 odd soldiers living in Germany doing essentially nothing you can imagine the cost to keeping them over there in allowances alone.

Unfortunately in many instances it will now cost us money to work. For personnel who have been housed at a different location from where they work due to lack of housing they will now have to pay for the journey themselves. I could give numerous other examples of things which can be claimed as a direct result of having to perform a certain duty will now see up being out of pocket.

When you see the massive over spends made either at central level of the continual 'improvement' schemes at a local level it is quite galling that the people who suffer most are those who perhaps only lose £200pm which in the grand scheme of things is nothing but individually can soon start to hurt.

[eccles]

Ok, so home to duty is being cut, but compare that to the cheap price of accommodation the forces pay. You don't get paid an allowance to drive to work once you get out.

[raf_gti]

eccles said:

Ok, so home to duty is being cut, but compare that to the cheap price of accommodation the forces pay. You don't get paid an allowance to drive to work once you get out.

It may be cheap but if often isn't up to the standard and if you have spent 22 years of your life living in a quarter what have you when you leave. If that person were to save the equivalent of the mortgage then surely they would be worse ff as the are paying a 'phantom mortgage' and paying for the quarter.

I agree with you on the not getting paid to drive to work when you are out but when you are out you aren't getting told where to live, potentially as little as every two years.

[eccles]

raf_gti said:

eccles said:

Ok, so home to duty is being cut, but compare that to the cheap price of accommodation the forces pay. You don't get paid an allowance to drive to work once you get out.

It may be cheap but if often isn't up to the standard and if you have spent 22 years of your life living in a quarter what have you when you leave. If that person were to save the equivalent of the mortgage then surely they would be worse ff as the are paying a 'phantom mortgage' and paying for the quarter.

I agree with you on the not getting paid to drive to work when you are out but when you are out you aren't getting told where to live, potentially as little as every two years.

Ok, so some accommodation isn't up to standard, but a lot is. In reality, how many people get posted every 2 years these days?
It used to be that if you'd spent time in quarters then that counted as public accommodation so would count towards a council house, also there's nothing to stop you buying a house whilst you're in.
As for being told where to live, I don't really have a great deal of choice. I have to live somewhere near an airfield, as aircraft is my trade. If I got out and wanted to work in a power station, I'd have to live near one. That's just life, and not peculiar to the forces.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti forces getting money, but I think a reality check has been a long time coming.

[raf_gti]

eccles said:

raf_gti said:

eccles said:

Ok, so home to duty is being cut, but compare that to the cheap price of accommodation the forces pay. You don't get paid an allowance to drive to work once you get out.

It may be cheap but if often isn't up to the standard and if you have spent 22 years of your life living in a quarter what have you when you leave. If that person were to save the equivalent of the mortgage then surely they would be worse ff as the are paying a 'phantom mortgage' and paying for the quarter.

I agree with you on the not getting paid to drive to work when you are out but when you are out you aren't getting told where to live, potentially as little as every two years.

Ok, so some accommodation isn't up to standard, but a lot is. In reality, how many people get posted every 2 years these days?
It used to be that if you'd spent time in quarters then that counted as public accommodation so would count towards a council house, also there's nothing to stop you buying a house whilst you're in.
As for being told where to live, I don't really have a great deal of choice. I have to live somewhere near an airfield, as aircraft is my trade. If I got out and wanted to work in a power station, I'd have to live near one. That's just life, and not peculiar to the forces.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti forces getting money, but I think a reality check has been a long time coming.

Ok, I'll buy a house whilst I'm in, what happens when I'm posted? I'll have to rent a quarter and either sell my house or rent it out, neither of which are a certainty to cover my cost because remember it's not my choice where I work.

Officers still get posted every two years, other ranks tend to be posted from the three year point, depending on what trade and role they have the can move between section on camp but that is not the norm.

If I left the RAF tomorrow I'd either stay where I am and find a job locally or have to uproot to find work, it's then more than likely that that is where I'll stay for a significant amount of time, being in the military that just isn't an option.

[Mojocvh]

the cutting of all Force Development and Adventure Training budgets is more outrageous than this crap.

Only ever used by a small knowledgable elite. If it had been compulsary AT then it may have stood a better chance.

[eccles]

Buggles said:

Mojocvh said:

the cutting of all Force Development and Adventure Training budgets is more outrageous than this crap.

Only ever used by a small knowledgable elite. If it had been compulsary AT then it may have stood a better chance.

I don't know about that to be fair. Most camps now a days were allowing sections to plan FD and AT activities regularly.

I know what you mean, it used to be just the 'old boys' who fancied a jolly, but it's very much an all ranks event now. Or at least it was.

I've always found it strange in these more modern times that the armed forces can afford to have people going of sailing for 2 weeks, or skiing for week etc. The official line is it build some sort of leadership qualities, but in reality it's just a jolly.

[raf_gti]

eccles said:

Buggles said:

Mojocvh said:

the cutting of all Force Development and Adventure Training budgets is more outrageous than this crap.

Only ever used by a small knowledgable elite. If it had been compulsary AT then it may have stood a better chance.

I don't know about that to be fair. Most camps now a days were allowing sections to plan FD and AT activities regularly.

I know what you mean, it used to be just the 'old boys' who fancied a jolly, but it's very much an all ranks event now. Or at least it was.

I've always found it strange in these more modern times that the armed forces can afford to have people going of sailing for 2 weeks, or skiing for week etc. The official line is it build some sort of leadership qualities, but in reality it's just a jolly.

Or it can be used as a tool to enable more junior members to come out of their shell and develop a sense of confidence?

I've never been on an exped where the participants fail to benefit.

If if hadn't escaped your notice we are supposed to be a fighting force, whatever helps to achieve that goal can only be a good thing.

I'm sounding like a right military fan-boi here

[Mojocvh]

raf_gti said:

eccles said:

Buggles said:

Mojocvh said:

the cutting of all Force Development and Adventure Training budgets is more outrageous than this crap.

Only ever used by a small knowledgable elite. If it had been compulsary AT then it may have stood a better chance.

I don't know about that to be fair. Most camps now a days were allowing sections to plan FD and AT activities regularly.

I know what you mean, it used to be just the 'old boys' who fancied a jolly, but it's very much an all ranks event now. Or at least it was.

I've always found it strange in these more modern times that the armed forces can afford to have people going of sailing for 2 weeks, or skiing for week etc. The official line is it build some sort of leadership qualities, but in reality it's just a jolly.

Or it can be used as a tool to enable more junior members to come out of their shell and develop a sense of confidence?

I've never been on an exped where the participants fail to benefit.

If if hadn't escaped your notice we are supposed to be a fighting force, whatever helps to achieve that goal can only be a good thing.

I'm sounding like a right military fan-boi here

The most important "leadership" events in my "service" career were not during AT that's for sure

[eccles]

raf_gti said:

eccles said:

Buggles said:

Mojocvh said:

the cutting of all Force Development and Adventure Training budgets is more outrageous than this crap.

Only ever used by a small knowledgable elite. If it had been compulsary AT then it may have stood a better chance.

I don't know about that to be fair. Most camps now a days were allowing sections to plan FD and AT activities regularly.

I know what you mean, it used to be just the 'old boys' who fancied a jolly, but it's very much an all ranks event now. Or at least it was.

I've always found it strange in these more modern times that the armed forces can afford to have people going of sailing for 2 weeks, or skiing for week etc. The official line is it build some sort of leadership qualities, but in reality it's just a jolly.

Or it can be used as a tool to enable more junior members to come out of their shell and develop a sense of confidence?

I've never been on an exped where the participants fail to benefit.

If if hadn't escaped your notice we are supposed to be a fighting force, whatever helps to achieve that goal can only be a good thing.

I'm sounding like a right military fan-boi here

Bet you wear cammo cream off duty!

When I was in it was just a few mates organising an expedition round the lake district coinciding with several pubs! I think the only benefit they got was free fuel and minibus!
Where I work now, I just see the same people going off sailing, skiing, diving for weeks at a time. These people are invariably the only ones with access to vital stuff that you need now, not in 2 weeks after they've come back from their jolly.
I don't see many timid junior ranks being included in the fun stuff, just the expeditions to Dartmoor in December!

[raf_gti]

eccles said:

raf_gti said:

eccles said:

Buggles said:

Mojocvh said:

the cutting of all Force Development and Adventure Training budgets is more outrageous than this crap.

Only ever used by a small knowledgable elite. If it had been compulsary AT then it may have stood a better chance.

I don't know about that to be fair. Most camps now a days were allowing sections to plan FD and AT activities regularly.

I know what you mean, it used to be just the 'old boys' who fancied a jolly, but it's very much an all ranks event now. Or at least it was.

I've always found it strange in these more modern times that the armed forces can afford to have people going of sailing for 2 weeks, or skiing for week etc. The official line is it build some sort of leadership qualities, but in reality it's just a jolly.

Or it can be used as a tool to enable more junior members to come out of their shell and develop a sense of confidence?

I've never been on an exped where the participants fail to benefit.

If if hadn't escaped your notice we are supposed to be a fighting force, whatever helps to achieve that goal can only be a good thing.

I'm sounding like a right military fan-boi here

Bet you wear cammo cream off duty!

When I was in it was just a few mates organising an expedition round the lake district coinciding with several pubs! I think the only benefit they got was free fuel and minibus!
Where I work now, I just see the same people going off sailing, skiing, diving for weeks at a time. These people are invariably the only ones with access to vital stuff that you need now, not in 2 weeks after they've come back from their jolly.
I don't see many timid junior ranks being included in the fun stuff, just the expeditions to Dartmoor in December!

I do agree, once you are in the AT 'club' you are sorted although even at my officer bashing best even I would never say it more likely to be them than the ORs.

It's just another example of the military becoming less & less so, eventually it will be just another job and IMO it's not a change for the better.

I'm sure you know from experience that for all the time off for sport etc and things such as HTD there is a whole load of other st going on which doesn't always balance the books.

[eccles]

raf_gti said:

eccles said:

raf_gti said:

eccles said:

Buggles said:

Mojocvh said:

the cutting of all Force Development and Adventure Training budgets is more outrageous than this crap.

Only ever used by a small knowledgable elite. If it had been compulsary AT then it may have stood a better chance.

I don't know about that to be fair. Most camps now a days were allowing sections to plan FD and AT activities regularly.

I know what you mean, it used to be just the 'old boys' who fancied a jolly, but it's very much an all ranks event now. Or at least it was.

I've always found it strange in these more modern times that the armed forces can afford to have people going of sailing for 2 weeks, or skiing for week etc. The official line is it build some sort of leadership qualities, but in reality it's just a jolly.

Or it can be used as a tool to enable more junior members to come out of their shell and develop a sense of confidence?

I've never been on an exped where the participants fail to benefit.

If if hadn't escaped your notice we are supposed to be a fighting force, whatever helps to achieve that goal can only be a good thing.

I'm sounding like a right military fan-boi here

Bet you wear cammo cream off duty!

When I was in it was just a few mates organising an expedition round the lake district coinciding with several pubs! I think the only benefit they got was free fuel and minibus!
Where I work now, I just see the same people going off sailing, skiing, diving for weeks at a time. These people are invariably the only ones with access to vital stuff that you need now, not in 2 weeks after they've come back from their jolly.
I don't see many timid junior ranks being included in the fun stuff, just the expeditions to Dartmoor in December!

I do agree, once you are in the AT 'club' you are sorted although even at my officer bashing best even I would never say it more likely to be them than the ORs.

It's just another example of the military becoming less & less so, eventually it will be just another job and IMO it's not a change for the better.

I'm sure you know from experience that for all the time off for sport etc and things such as HTD there is a whole load of other st going on which doesn't always balance the books.

They used to call it the 'x' factor. You were paid for your job, and the little bit extra was called the 'x' factor. this was meant to make up for pulling guard duty, unsocial hours going to war etc.

The way it's going the forces will be getting overtime and hazardous pay for going to war next!

[eccles]

I was trying to say that the forces are going more and more like a civvy company, so you'll be getting over time next.

[Oilchange]

Nobody 'claims' flying pay. Much like Para pay it is included as part of your pay albeit non pensionable. It is a retention incentive, apparently.
Also, the Pilot/Nav/Crewman (officer) may go from a desk to commanding a flight/squadron/station which is a flying tour. The flying pay peters out as the officer rises in rank, it remains for non commissioned ranks as the primary role is flying.
It stands to reason that flying trades are paid more (thats the flying pay) as the responsibility is immense.

andy400 said:

I don't agree with all the changes, but a bit of rationalisation is long overdue. Far too many aviators, for just one example, claiming ££££ of flying pay when it is obvious to all that they will never pilot anything other than a desk for the rest of their career.

[Oilchange]

ISTR if it was a voluntary posting, after 3 years it was lost, if it wasn't you kept it. Can't remember if this is fact though.
That bloke may well have been in a post through no fault of his own, he would still get flying pay.

[98elise]

eccles said:

raf_gti said:

eccles said:

Ok, so home to duty is being cut, but compare that to the cheap price of accommodation the forces pay. You don't get paid an allowance to drive to work once you get out.

It may be cheap but if often isn't up to the standard and if you have spent 22 years of your life living in a quarter what have you when you leave. If that person were to save the equivalent of the mortgage then surely they would be worse ff as the are paying a 'phantom mortgage' and paying for the quarter.

I agree with you on the not getting paid to drive to work when you are out but when you are out you aren't getting told where to live, potentially as little as every two years.

Ok, so some accommodation isn't up to standard, but a lot is. In reality, how many people get posted every 2 years these days?
It used to be that if you'd spent time in quarters then that counted as public accommodation so would count towards a council house, also there's nothing to stop you buying a house whilst you're in.
As for being told where to live, I don't really have a great deal of choice. I have to live somewhere near an airfield, as aircraft is my trade. If I got out and wanted to work in a power station, I'd have to live near one. That's just life, and not peculiar to the forces.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti forces getting money, but I think a reality check has been a long time coming.

You might need to buy a house near work, but that company is unlikely to move to the other end of the country, or to another country, every few years. If they do, and you don't like it, you can simply hand your notice in and go.

When I was in the forces I ended up buying a house in my home town, so that I didn't have to sell up and move every 2 years. This meant I was paying two lots of housing. Bear in mind the pay for a serviceman is much lower than a civvy equal, and you have no paid over time (but do get to work it!)