Norfolk Burglar (not cars)
Discussion
quote:
Relax,
Thanks for stating the case so frankly - as they say in the advert "its good to talk" because we always end up with a better understanding of eachother's perception.
If I can go completely off-topic for a moment, could I ask you how the Police see the case of the Norfolk(?) character who shot a burglar?
Maybe this is a tactless question which might compromise you if you answered it in an open forum, but any views you feel able to express would be most interesting.
ive moved this to a new topic, cos the old one is contraversial enough as it is
Hmmm. Difficult really, I suppose at the end of the day he broke the law by shooting the guy, but the burgalar was breaking the law by breaking into his house. On a scale of things, burgalary is less serious than murder, but it could be argued that if the burgalar hadn't appeared to be threatening (I.e not been there in the first place) he wouldn't have got shot.
So, as I don't really know the in-and-outs of the case and I'm not familliar with Law as an accademic subject, so I'm not really in a position to say a great deal as far as the legalities go.
From a moral point of view, I would say that the burgalar was in the wrong from the start, and maybe he brought it on himself. However, I think shooting him with a shotgun was a bit overkill (no pun intended).
I'll bet that most normal people faced with a hostile stranger sneaking around their home at night would probably give the burgalar a good thrashing with whatever household object came to hand, just as a natural impulse. Whether they'd really want to kill the guy (if they actually thought about it) I doubt it.
But you probably wouldn't have time to think level-headed in that kind of situation. I wouldn't be suprised if most disturbed burgalars were seriousley injured in some way, I don't know the stats though,
Burgalars (like any criminal) would probably pray on people who are unable to defend themselves unless they aren't thinking rationally themselves (i.e On drugs).
All I can say to sum up is: Its unfortunate that the guy who lived in the house had a loaded shotgun to hand. And it proably serves the burgalar right. At least he won't be burgling anyone else. It might send a message to other burgalars. BUT Taking the law into ones own hands is very serious and should't be done. I suppose the british Legal system failed the home owner by not preventing the burgulary in the fist place. Tougher and longer sentences and less burocracy would be nice.
So, as I don't really know the in-and-outs of the case and I'm not familliar with Law as an accademic subject, so I'm not really in a position to say a great deal as far as the legalities go.
From a moral point of view, I would say that the burgalar was in the wrong from the start, and maybe he brought it on himself. However, I think shooting him with a shotgun was a bit overkill (no pun intended).
I'll bet that most normal people faced with a hostile stranger sneaking around their home at night would probably give the burgalar a good thrashing with whatever household object came to hand, just as a natural impulse. Whether they'd really want to kill the guy (if they actually thought about it) I doubt it.
But you probably wouldn't have time to think level-headed in that kind of situation. I wouldn't be suprised if most disturbed burgalars were seriousley injured in some way, I don't know the stats though,
Burgalars (like any criminal) would probably pray on people who are unable to defend themselves unless they aren't thinking rationally themselves (i.e On drugs).
All I can say to sum up is: Its unfortunate that the guy who lived in the house had a loaded shotgun to hand. And it proably serves the burgalar right. At least he won't be burgling anyone else. It might send a message to other burgalars. BUT Taking the law into ones own hands is very serious and should't be done. I suppose the british Legal system failed the home owner by not preventing the burgulary in the fist place. Tougher and longer sentences and less burocracy would be nice.
And the chap on Norfolk had been broken into a number of times just before the shooting.
A house alarm on one of the houses went off at midnight last night, after 5 mins I called the police, they asked if I could see anything, I repiled no it was dark and if the house had been broken into then the culprit would be inside. they said they were sorry but could not do anythin unless the breaking was visable! I said that I hoped that no-one was killed as a result and then wished them good night. So what would have happened if I had got dressed and gone over the road to the house with my angry dog and a large stick? I bet I'd have been the one that got done.
A house alarm on one of the houses went off at midnight last night, after 5 mins I called the police, they asked if I could see anything, I repiled no it was dark and if the house had been broken into then the culprit would be inside. they said they were sorry but could not do anythin unless the breaking was visable! I said that I hoped that no-one was killed as a result and then wished them good night. So what would have happened if I had got dressed and gone over the road to the house with my angry dog and a large stick? I bet I'd have been the one that got done.
The problem is, that police will not normally respond to an alarm going off. They would generally consider it to be a false alarm. Firstly it needs to have sequential verification, which means that the burgular must be detected by two seperate components of the system, to insure that the alarm was not set off by a cat, or by the wind. Seccondly, the system needs to be monitored for the police to respond, which means that the alarm is directly connected via phone lines to a central station (most larger security companies have one) which is manned 24hrs a day. When a signal comes through, they are responsible for phoning the police, or sending out an engineer if the alarm is false. Its also possible in some cases to see whats wrong with the system remotely, in which case the owner is notified and asked for a password. The signal is passed along the phoneline using some kind of signalling device used in addition to the control pannel (Redcare is the most common).
Additional security is available with 'Redcare GSM' which has two means of transmission. One using land lines and one using a Vodaphone GSM transmitter. Therefore, If the phone lines are cut, the signal still gets through to the central station. If both signals fail, then the police are sent.
Alternitavely its possible to buy deterents to stop the burgular breaking in, such as 'Smoke Cloak' which fill the room or building with a very thick (harmless) white smoke, so thick that you couldn't see your hand if you were touching your nose.
Sequential verification is a standard of the two regulatory bodies 'NACOSS' and 'SSAIB' who now work to european standards, both regulatory bodies are insurance standards, and many high risk properties will need to have an approved alarm if they are to get insurance cover. The regulatory bodies are private enterprises, of which security companies need to apply to to gain approval (not a legal obligation).
As from this year on, sequential verification has become the insurance standard for alarm systems and the security company (if approved) is responsible for ensuring that the system works properly.
All Burocracy, but that's probably why the police never did anything.
Additional security is available with 'Redcare GSM' which has two means of transmission. One using land lines and one using a Vodaphone GSM transmitter. Therefore, If the phone lines are cut, the signal still gets through to the central station. If both signals fail, then the police are sent.
Alternitavely its possible to buy deterents to stop the burgular breaking in, such as 'Smoke Cloak' which fill the room or building with a very thick (harmless) white smoke, so thick that you couldn't see your hand if you were touching your nose.
Sequential verification is a standard of the two regulatory bodies 'NACOSS' and 'SSAIB' who now work to european standards, both regulatory bodies are insurance standards, and many high risk properties will need to have an approved alarm if they are to get insurance cover. The regulatory bodies are private enterprises, of which security companies need to apply to to gain approval (not a legal obligation).
As from this year on, sequential verification has become the insurance standard for alarm systems and the security company (if approved) is responsible for ensuring that the system works properly.
All Burocracy, but that's probably why the police never did anything.
I personally think that Tony Martin should be released, guilty of manslaughter but acting in reasonable defence of himself/his property and so perhaps a suspended 1yr sentence would be appropriate..
The law unfortunately is 'reasonble force' to defend yourself, which means a shotgun vs an unarmed man is not fair.
But to me it is fair, if you are committing a burglary then you are attempting to steal someone elses property and to me if a burglar got past my 11 stone dog I have a crossbow in my bedroom.............Quite frankly if someone enters my property with the intent to rob me, I don't know if he is armed, and I am not going to ask him nicely to fill in a little list of all items in his possession so that I can use a knife if thats all he has etc.. I'm going to stop him. My house is my castle and all that. F**k 'em, thieving scum deserve no sympathy.
Unfortunately the judges who can decide what is reasonable live in La La land.
as you can tell I am not really what you might term an avid guardian reader..
The law unfortunately is 'reasonble force' to defend yourself, which means a shotgun vs an unarmed man is not fair.
But to me it is fair, if you are committing a burglary then you are attempting to steal someone elses property and to me if a burglar got past my 11 stone dog I have a crossbow in my bedroom.............Quite frankly if someone enters my property with the intent to rob me, I don't know if he is armed, and I am not going to ask him nicely to fill in a little list of all items in his possession so that I can use a knife if thats all he has etc.. I'm going to stop him. My house is my castle and all that. F**k 'em, thieving scum deserve no sympathy.
Unfortunately the judges who can decide what is reasonable live in La La land.
as you can tell I am not really what you might term an avid guardian reader..
Just found this Rhino Hunter crossbow with a powerful 75m range. Might settle the argument:
www.xbows.co.uk/compound.htm
www.xbows.co.uk/compound.htm
quote:
Can you recommend an outlet that stocks crossbows?
I got mine from Abridge armoury near romford, essex.Dunno if they are still in business..
It'll go thru 3" of solid oak, has steel tips on the bolts, and you'll need to get a cocking lever cause the things are so powerful you won't be able to pull the string back !!
Be very careful.
I've told the whole story before so I won't go into it again but enough to say I bought a telescopic batten (similar to the police issue ones) off a company in Bristol on the net. A few months later I got a visit from plod who wanted to take it off me (they'd raided said company) I was warned and told a note would be put on the National computer saying I owned one and that if I ever used it on some scrote in my house I'd be in serious shite as it was now documented with intent.
Interesting point was when I bought one it got followed by Kent plod at the request of Avon and Somerset, a "friend" who lives in Wiltshire bought one a few days later after I told him about them and has never had a visit.
I've told the whole story before so I won't go into it again but enough to say I bought a telescopic batten (similar to the police issue ones) off a company in Bristol on the net. A few months later I got a visit from plod who wanted to take it off me (they'd raided said company) I was warned and told a note would be put on the National computer saying I owned one and that if I ever used it on some scrote in my house I'd be in serious shite as it was now documented with intent.
Interesting point was when I bought one it got followed by Kent plod at the request of Avon and Somerset, a "friend" who lives in Wiltshire bought one a few days later after I told him about them and has never had a visit.
{O/T}
Speaking of burglaries - how abou this one :
The company I work for has offices in Surrey. Two weeks ago we were broken into again (second time in 6 months). Anyway, nicked a load of laptops and some other computer kit - probably around £6K worth of kit missing! MD turns up when the alarm goes off (he's actually the closest to the office (unlucky) and calls the police. What do they say....?
"Its a commercial property. Our policy is to not attend commercial property burglaries". Nice one, just get a crime reference number and thats it.... Ok, I know that the police are overworked and underpaid, but this is just plain daft! MD then asks what he is supposed to do. I mean, they might have still been inside - response : "just wait a while, they should have gone by then."
And these people are supposed to protect us? They want us to trust and respect them? They want co-operation with them? Well, they better bloody turn up at an office that has been burgled and check it out - catch the scrotes that do it and then we will work with them...
Daft, just plain daft....
Cheers,
Paul
Speaking of burglaries - how abou this one :
The company I work for has offices in Surrey. Two weeks ago we were broken into again (second time in 6 months). Anyway, nicked a load of laptops and some other computer kit - probably around £6K worth of kit missing! MD turns up when the alarm goes off (he's actually the closest to the office (unlucky) and calls the police. What do they say....?
"Its a commercial property. Our policy is to not attend commercial property burglaries". Nice one, just get a crime reference number and thats it.... Ok, I know that the police are overworked and underpaid, but this is just plain daft! MD then asks what he is supposed to do. I mean, they might have still been inside - response : "just wait a while, they should have gone by then."
And these people are supposed to protect us? They want us to trust and respect them? They want co-operation with them? Well, they better bloody turn up at an office that has been burgled and check it out - catch the scrotes that do it and then we will work with them...
Daft, just plain daft....
Cheers,
Paul
quote:
{O/T}
Speaking of burglaries - how abou this one :
The company I work for has offices in Surrey. Two weeks ago we were broken into again (second time in 6 months). Anyway, nicked a load of laptops and some other computer kit - probably around £6K worth of kit missing! MD turns up when the alarm goes off (he's actually the closest to the office (unlucky) and calls the police. What do they say....?
"Its a commercial property. Our policy is to not attend commercial property burglaries". Nice one, just get a crime reference number and thats it.... Ok, I know that the police are overworked and underpaid, but this is just plain daft! MD then asks what he is supposed to do. I mean, they might have still been inside - response : "just wait a while, they should have gone by then."
And these people are supposed to protect us? They want us to trust and respect them? They want co-operation with them? Well, they better bloody turn up at an office that has been burgled and check it out - catch the scrotes that do it and then we will work with them...
Daft, just plain daft....
Cheers,
Paul
It`s the old "oh well the insurance will sort it out "
excuse , years ago i lived in a flat in an iffy part of town and was constantly woken up by loud music mostly during the week by a gang of punk rockers , phoned the old bill on a couple of occasions and nothing , then one night when i told them that if they were going to do nothing then i would go rounfd and sort it out myself , that got a reaction from them , aparently if there is a threat of violence they have to respond to it, plod visited the scrotes and no more trouble with noise .
I'm not that familliar with the Tony Martin case, but did discuss with a friend who was a lawyer. Seems that the biggest problem for the 'self defense' case, was that (according to legal mate) that the scrote was shot in the back from 10-15 yards... Difficult to prove that you pulled the trigger in fear if those circumstances are actually the case..
quote:
"Its a commercial property. Our policy is to not attend commercial property burglaries". Nice one, just get a crime reference number and thats it.... Ok, I know that the police are overworked and underpaid, but this is just plain daft! MD then asks what he is supposed to do. I mean, they might have still been inside - response : "just wait a while, they should have gone by then."
Their policy is not to attend ????? WTF is going on, if its a burglary then surely they are duty bound to attend. Eg a crime has been committed and afaik therir remit is to solvve crime is it not?
Overworked and underpaid!!!!!!!!!!! you are joking i hope. The pay is good, or so my police friends have always said. And yes its such a hard job sitting by the road with a mobile speed camera. Perhaps if they took more time with the burglaries and street crime and less with the 'easy target' of motorists.
The best police story ive heard (and ive heard it a few times about different people) is about individuals who keep getting their performance or luxury cars stolen, they ask for police help and all the advice given is 'buy a less popular car' gr8 help huh.
quote:
"Its a commercial property. Our policy is to not attend commercial property burglaries". Nice one, just get a crime reference number and thats it.... Ok, I know that the police are overworked and underpaid, but this is just plain daft! MD then asks what he is supposed to do. I mean, they might have still been inside - response : "just wait a while, they should have gone by then."
The problem is that there are too many false alarms for the police to attend them all. Therefore they just assume that they are all false alarms in the case of commercial premesis.
The insurance company were (until about a month ago) responsible for carrying out a risk assesment on a commercial property. To protect themselves against having to pay out, they will specify to what level the property needs to be secured. In all cases this involves using insurance approved companies (NACOSS or SSAIB members) only.
Now, new European legislation has meant that the security companies are responsible if a break-in occurs. This way, the system is designed to higher standards to ENSURE that the system isn't beaten.
In a lot of commercial and industrial premesis where there are perhaps hundreds of employees, the police wouldn't find a great deal to go on anyway.
Active prevention is available through using security guards, or a new technology which uses CCTV camera's
either Speed Dome's or PTZ's (Pan Tilt & Zoom) which are connected via an ISDN link to a central station. once the circuit is triggered, the operator (could be anywhere in the world) can have a conversation with the person, and perform other tasks such as opening and closing gates, turning on lights and calling the police. In real-time. Therefore, the police do not arrive to see a video reccording of a couple of blokes in balaclava's in a stolen veichle the next morning.
Commercial and industrial properties have a duty to protect themselves.
quote:
I think it has been shown subsequently to the trial that Tony Martin was mentally ill. He was paranoid about being burgled
I thought he had already been burgled about 4/5 times in the past, and that is why he took extreme action.
Plod did ***k all to help him as the burglar was not driving over the speed limit to/from the crime scene
What a load of bolocks.
Commercial and Industrial Property may well have a duty to protect themselves but I'm bloody sure the Police have a duty to protect them also. It may be very good for the Security industry to say you can spend x amount of 1000's on a bells and whistles system you can monitor from the beach in Brazil or you can employ another couple of wages to sit on their arses all night just incase, but who pays for this ??? British industry is up Shit Creek as it it, we are not competitive in the global market because our overheads are too high and continue to have to look at cost cutting. I personally have seen deflation over the last few years with the prices manufacturing can charge dropping while being forced to pay more for many other services, Industry is getting shagged by this Government both centrally and locally the general consensus of opinion appears to be "They're commercial they can afford it" my factories business rates are roughly 4 times the level of my residential council tax for the same area and yet comercial property gets no refuse collection, no street lighting, no road maintenance, and now no Police Force. As an Industrial Estate we are expected to fund all of these ourselves !!!!
Commercial and Industrial Property may well have a duty to protect themselves but I'm bloody sure the Police have a duty to protect them also. It may be very good for the Security industry to say you can spend x amount of 1000's on a bells and whistles system you can monitor from the beach in Brazil or you can employ another couple of wages to sit on their arses all night just incase, but who pays for this ??? British industry is up Shit Creek as it it, we are not competitive in the global market because our overheads are too high and continue to have to look at cost cutting. I personally have seen deflation over the last few years with the prices manufacturing can charge dropping while being forced to pay more for many other services, Industry is getting shagged by this Government both centrally and locally the general consensus of opinion appears to be "They're commercial they can afford it" my factories business rates are roughly 4 times the level of my residential council tax for the same area and yet comercial property gets no refuse collection, no street lighting, no road maintenance, and now no Police Force. As an Industrial Estate we are expected to fund all of these ourselves !!!!
I agree, it stinks. But that is the way it's moving due to the European burocracy being brought in.
My dad works for a security company which specialises in commercial alarm systems, CCTV and Access control. I've heard so many stories of people setting all kind of make-shift booby traps to prevent people (usually kids) breaking into factories etc because the police failed to do anything..
I think that it's Europe screwing us over, and our govornment aren't doing a blind thing about it.
Look at any british industry: Farming, Cars, Banking, Computers & electronics, airlines, NHS etc etc... Maybe Brussels is hoping that we will end up being the poor corner of europe so it can fill us full of asylum seekers.
I can sort of understand Dyson moving to malaysia (or wherever)
I wonder how long it'll be before the Fire Brigade won't attend a commercial property?
My dad works for a security company which specialises in commercial alarm systems, CCTV and Access control. I've heard so many stories of people setting all kind of make-shift booby traps to prevent people (usually kids) breaking into factories etc because the police failed to do anything..
I think that it's Europe screwing us over, and our govornment aren't doing a blind thing about it.
Look at any british industry: Farming, Cars, Banking, Computers & electronics, airlines, NHS etc etc... Maybe Brussels is hoping that we will end up being the poor corner of europe so it can fill us full of asylum seekers.
I can sort of understand Dyson moving to malaysia (or wherever)
I wonder how long it'll be before the Fire Brigade won't attend a commercial property?
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