Is this why we can never win in Afghanistan?
Discussion
bbc said:
A soldier who faced an Afghan insurgent who was using a child as a human shield has survived being shot after not firing in case he injured the girl.
Lance Corporal Craig Murfitt, 25, from Barnstaple, Devon, was saved by his helmet, which stopped a bullet during a confrontation in Helmand province.
He was with Tidworth-based 2nd Royal Tank Regiment when he was called to reinforce infantry colleagues.
The father of one, who was uninjured, returned to duty after the attack.
Rooftop shooting
The rifleman and medic had been on a routine security patrol when a group of soldiers came under fire from hidden Taliban insurgents and required immediate back-up, he said.
I said to the others: 'I've been shot in the head but I'm fine'”
After a firefight, L/Cpl Murfitt said he spotted three men with a child on a roof about 300yds (275m).
He said: "Suddenly two of the men moved off, leaving one man with the child. It was a girl, no more than 10 years old.
"At this point I realised something was wrong. The man picked up a rifle and moved behind the child, taking aim at me.
"So I waited, hoping that the child would drop down and give me a clear shot.
He then watched the sniper take aim and pull the trigger for a shot which threw him to the ground.
'Could take him'
The bullet struck him on the left hand side of his Mark 7 Combat Helmet.
He said: "I felt the dent in my helmet and said to the others, 'I've been shot in the head but I'm fine'.
"I tried to stand up but I had disco legs and just had to sit down again for a bit."
It is unclear what happened to the girl involved after the incident.
He added: "I knew I could take him down but, being a dad myself, I didn't want to run the risk of killing a kid and undoing all the good work we've achieved."
L/Cpl Murfitt will return to his wife and son, who is less than a year old, when his tour ends next year.
It seems to me that if our soldiers take this attitude (and bloody good on them for doing so) then we are fighting a losing battle. I'm not for the disregarding of human shields far from it, but I can't help but feel we are not going to win this, how can we combat, conventionally, the sort of coward that needs the defence of a 10 year old girl?Lance Corporal Craig Murfitt, 25, from Barnstaple, Devon, was saved by his helmet, which stopped a bullet during a confrontation in Helmand province.
He was with Tidworth-based 2nd Royal Tank Regiment when he was called to reinforce infantry colleagues.
The father of one, who was uninjured, returned to duty after the attack.
Rooftop shooting
The rifleman and medic had been on a routine security patrol when a group of soldiers came under fire from hidden Taliban insurgents and required immediate back-up, he said.
I said to the others: 'I've been shot in the head but I'm fine'”
After a firefight, L/Cpl Murfitt said he spotted three men with a child on a roof about 300yds (275m).
He said: "Suddenly two of the men moved off, leaving one man with the child. It was a girl, no more than 10 years old.
"At this point I realised something was wrong. The man picked up a rifle and moved behind the child, taking aim at me.
"So I waited, hoping that the child would drop down and give me a clear shot.
He then watched the sniper take aim and pull the trigger for a shot which threw him to the ground.
'Could take him'
The bullet struck him on the left hand side of his Mark 7 Combat Helmet.
He said: "I felt the dent in my helmet and said to the others, 'I've been shot in the head but I'm fine'.
"I tried to stand up but I had disco legs and just had to sit down again for a bit."
It is unclear what happened to the girl involved after the incident.
He added: "I knew I could take him down but, being a dad myself, I didn't want to run the risk of killing a kid and undoing all the good work we've achieved."
L/Cpl Murfitt will return to his wife and son, who is less than a year old, when his tour ends next year.
edited to add link
Edited by DieselGriff on Sunday 19th December 17:40
DieselGriff said:
how can we combat, conventionally, the sort of coward that needs the defence of a 10 year old girl?
IMO, we can't.Edited by DieselGriff on Sunday 19th December 17:40
However it is incidents like this that seperate us and put us above the animals and cowards being faced over there, but, I believe its the only "victory" we will gain from our time in Afghanistan.
Some "wars" just can't be won and this is one of them.
(By the way, i'm not part of the anti-war brigade, I did my time in the Army, and I have many friends over there now and this kind of human sheild incident goes on a lot more than most realise.)
Of course we can win.
However we can't win and at the same time keep our number of dead down to a minimum.
Either we fully commit and thus expect lots of more dead British soldiers or we leave. This middle of the road approach is helping no one.
Of course I'm no military strategist so could be talking s
te. Just an opinion.
However we can't win and at the same time keep our number of dead down to a minimum.
Either we fully commit and thus expect lots of more dead British soldiers or we leave. This middle of the road approach is helping no one.
Of course I'm no military strategist so could be talking s
te. Just an opinion.We can't win never could and never will be able to as the win we want doesn't seem to be compatible with what the average Afghan wants. Besides what is a win, an American style democracy? a democracy that believes it's populace are stupid/can't be trusted and need their hands holding for the final decision. Or a none Taliban government? Or no Opium poppies being grown?
Engineer1 said:
We can't win never could and never will be able to as the win we want doesn't seem to be compatible with what the average Afghan wants. Besides what is a win, an American style democracy? a democracy that believes it's populace are stupid/can't be trusted and need their hands holding for the final decision. Or a none Taliban government? Or no Opium poppies being grown?
A win in Afghanistan is simply 'do what the hell you want to your own people and neighbours, just don't export your crap to the West'.I think America has long given up on any sort of democracy in Afghanistan. They'd be fools to promote this when their own man in Kabul, Karzai simply buys his way through elections.
Victor McDade said:
Of course we can win.
Either we fully commit and thus expect lots of more dead British soldiers or we leave. This middle of the road approach is helping no one.
There really is a softly softly approach at times. i remember when americans did the shock and awe bombing in iraq - alot of hte insurgents ran away from that might of firepower. tahts why americans are more trusted to take care of things - shoot first ask later is a crappy attitude but its an attitude thats working in there...Either we fully commit and thus expect lots of more dead British soldiers or we leave. This middle of the road approach is helping no one.
I don't think a modern day democratic state can succesfully remain in an unfriendly environment (I would use the word occupy but I know that will raise an argument).
Of the reports I have seen the Taliban and other local fighters are fighting against a foreign aggressor and would do regardless of who it were to be and are being supplemented by foreign jihadists that want to fight a religious war. The local tribal leaders are the people the West need to engage with to bring peace to the region.
Of the reports I have seen the Taliban and other local fighters are fighting against a foreign aggressor and would do regardless of who it were to be and are being supplemented by foreign jihadists that want to fight a religious war. The local tribal leaders are the people the West need to engage with to bring peace to the region.
I've read a few reports of this article.
Apart from a 25 year old saying 300 yards. Do the Tank Reg use Yards.
I'm not sure I would be particularly happy if I was one of his oppos, he sees three armed guys on a roof top and continues to watch them while one of them moves behind a child before taking aim at him !
If I am in the same patrol they could have been taking aim at me, this tank guy is supposed to be backing up infantry.
If someone has your back, this isn't the way to do it.
I'm sorry if this is against the flow.
I prefer to think this article is propaganda and that the guy was not remiss in his duty. Nice story though.
Apart from a 25 year old saying 300 yards. Do the Tank Reg use Yards.
I'm not sure I would be particularly happy if I was one of his oppos, he sees three armed guys on a roof top and continues to watch them while one of them moves behind a child before taking aim at him !
If I am in the same patrol they could have been taking aim at me, this tank guy is supposed to be backing up infantry.
If someone has your back, this isn't the way to do it.
I'm sorry if this is against the flow.
I prefer to think this article is propaganda and that the guy was not remiss in his duty. Nice story though.
jeff m said:
Would a 25 year old say 300 yards ?
Standard engagement range is still measured as 300yds. Or it was a few years ago anyway.
With regards to not firng on children, even when in danger, I seem to remeber an old chap telling a story about his time in the Hilter Youth at the end of the war. He was abotu 12 or 13 as I recall. They were told that they were safe to fire at the US tanks because they would not fire on them. Thankfully for him it was true.
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