Jack-knifed lorries v. winter tyres
Discussion
Remembering back to last winter, on the days I had long journeys home from work the big problem was lorries that couldn't cope with the slippery conditions. While most cars didn't have winter tyres, it seemed to be the lorries that really snarled things up, and it's being repeated this year.
I found a guide (.pdf) from Continental tyres about the use of winter tyres across Europe so I started wondering about the proportion of jack-knifed lorries that were UK based rather than from Europe, and the proportion that were using winter tyres.
It would be interesting to know if there was a case for mandatory fitment of winter tyres to lorries and possibly trailers, either during the winter months or when there was snow and ice on the roads.
I found a guide (.pdf) from Continental tyres about the use of winter tyres across Europe so I started wondering about the proportion of jack-knifed lorries that were UK based rather than from Europe, and the proportion that were using winter tyres.
It would be interesting to know if there was a case for mandatory fitment of winter tyres to lorries and possibly trailers, either during the winter months or when there was snow and ice on the roads.
I don't think their is a case for a mandatory anything.
What I would like to see is a bit of honest promotion, and debate(beyond PH) about the benefits of winter tyres.
Perhaps all the emergency services should use them?
It might make commercial sense for many types of business's to use them?
That way their would be a more widespread public knowledge, and more people would choose to use them, but it should always be an individuals choice.
What I would like to see is a bit of honest promotion, and debate(beyond PH) about the benefits of winter tyres.
Perhaps all the emergency services should use them?
It might make commercial sense for many types of business's to use them?
That way their would be a more widespread public knowledge, and more people would choose to use them, but it should always be an individuals choice.
AnotherGareth said:
Remembering back to last winter, on the days I had long journeys home from work the big problem was lorries that couldn't cope with the slippery conditions. While most cars didn't have winter tyres, it seemed to be the lorries that really snarled things up, and it's being repeated this year.
I found a guide (.pdf) from Continental tyres about the use of winter tyres across Europe so I started wondering about the proportion of jack-knifed lorries that were UK based rather than from Europe, and the proportion that were using winter tyres.
It would be interesting to know if there was a case for mandatory fitment of winter tyres to lorries and possibly trailers, either during the winter months or when there was snow and ice on the roads.
I found a guide (.pdf) from Continental tyres about the use of winter tyres across Europe so I started wondering about the proportion of jack-knifed lorries that were UK based rather than from Europe, and the proportion that were using winter tyres.
It would be interesting to know if there was a case for mandatory fitment of winter tyres to lorries and possibly trailers, either during the winter months or when there was snow and ice on the roads.
Could you imagine the cost?
Quite simply, it makes no financial sense for a hauliers to fit "winter" tyres across their fleet. I can't imagine the costs of kitting a full HGV and trailers with winter tyres - it must be tens of thousands.
If a lorry jacknifes the haulier looses it for 12-24 hours. If they're unlucky they might loose a refigerated load of have to pay out a bit for lost revenue on a delayed delivery. I doubt that they fatally damage any vehicles by jacknifing. IF they happen to crash, they are insured.
They care not a jot about the ensuing "traffic chaos!" or the fact they shut motorways. They've lost a lorry for the day and thats it.
There is a fine line between balancing the needs of an important industry with the needs of the nation. Compulsion is one way to do it, but being realistic, snow and winter weather affects the UK 1-2 weeks a year. There is not enough reason to compell hauliers to fit winter tyres across the fleet. UNtil there's legislation or huge insurance to pay if you don't, they simply wont do it, just as most private motorists refuse to pay £500-£1000 to fit them to their own cars.
If a lorry jacknifes the haulier looses it for 12-24 hours. If they're unlucky they might loose a refigerated load of have to pay out a bit for lost revenue on a delayed delivery. I doubt that they fatally damage any vehicles by jacknifing. IF they happen to crash, they are insured.
They care not a jot about the ensuing "traffic chaos!" or the fact they shut motorways. They've lost a lorry for the day and thats it.
There is a fine line between balancing the needs of an important industry with the needs of the nation. Compulsion is one way to do it, but being realistic, snow and winter weather affects the UK 1-2 weeks a year. There is not enough reason to compell hauliers to fit winter tyres across the fleet. UNtil there's legislation or huge insurance to pay if you don't, they simply wont do it, just as most private motorists refuse to pay £500-£1000 to fit them to their own cars.
I think its more a case of educating people about driving in snow and ice.
Ive driven 1000's of miles in snow and ice on cheap part worn ditch finders (budget jobs) and never been stuck, never had any 'scary moments'
I could'nt afford winter tyres but wouldn't fit them if I could tbh.
If it was law imagine how much haulage companys would have to pay to change all the tyres/wheels on there fleet twice a year? Unless the govement can find a way to tax the hell out of it, it would never become law
Ive driven 1000's of miles in snow and ice on cheap part worn ditch finders (budget jobs) and never been stuck, never had any 'scary moments'
I could'nt afford winter tyres but wouldn't fit them if I could tbh.
If it was law imagine how much haulage companys would have to pay to change all the tyres/wheels on there fleet twice a year? Unless the govement can find a way to tax the hell out of it, it would never become law
MrPickle said:
I think its more a case of educating people about driving in snow and ice.
Ive driven 1000's of miles in snow and ice on cheap part worn ditch finders (budget jobs) and never been stuck, never had any 'scary moments'
I could'nt afford winter tyres but wouldn't fit them if I could tbh.
If it was law imagine how much haulage companys would have to pay to change all the tyres/wheels on there fleet twice a year? Unless the govement can find a way to tax the hell out of it, it would never become law
+1Ive driven 1000's of miles in snow and ice on cheap part worn ditch finders (budget jobs) and never been stuck, never had any 'scary moments'
I could'nt afford winter tyres but wouldn't fit them if I could tbh.
If it was law imagine how much haulage companys would have to pay to change all the tyres/wheels on there fleet twice a year? Unless the govement can find a way to tax the hell out of it, it would never become law
it is all about driver education...these idiots clogging up the main routes due to their incompetence behind the wheel should all be up on "driving without due care and attention" charges
WeirdNeville said:
Quite simply, it makes no financial sense for a hauliers to fit "winter" tyres across their fleet. I can't imagine the costs of kitting a full HGV and trailers with winter tyres - it must be tens of thousands.
If a lorry jacknifes the haulier looses it for 12-24 hours. If they're unlucky they might loose a refigerated load of have to pay out a bit for lost revenue on a delayed delivery. I doubt that they fatally damage any vehicles by jacknifing. IF they happen to crash, they are insured.
They care not a jot about the ensuing "traffic chaos!" or the fact they shut motorways. They've lost a lorry for the day and thats it.
There is a fine line between balancing the needs of an important industry with the needs of the nation. Compulsion is one way to do it, but being realistic, snow and winter weather affects the UK 1-2 weeks a year. There is not enough reason to compell hauliers to fit winter tyres across the fleet. UNtil there's legislation or huge insurance to pay if you don't, they simply wont do it, just as most private motorists refuse to pay £500-£1000 to fit them to their own cars.
In Scotland it is a lot more than 1-2 weeks a year.If a lorry jacknifes the haulier looses it for 12-24 hours. If they're unlucky they might loose a refigerated load of have to pay out a bit for lost revenue on a delayed delivery. I doubt that they fatally damage any vehicles by jacknifing. IF they happen to crash, they are insured.
They care not a jot about the ensuing "traffic chaos!" or the fact they shut motorways. They've lost a lorry for the day and thats it.
There is a fine line between balancing the needs of an important industry with the needs of the nation. Compulsion is one way to do it, but being realistic, snow and winter weather affects the UK 1-2 weeks a year. There is not enough reason to compell hauliers to fit winter tyres across the fleet. UNtil there's legislation or huge insurance to pay if you don't, they simply wont do it, just as most private motorists refuse to pay £500-£1000 to fit them to their own cars.
I can see that, as we revert to colder winters, some sort of legislation will be called for, as the economic losses to the country far exceed the cost to hauliers.
There is no point spending hundreds of millions of pounds widening roads if one lorry can close a Motorway for half a day, or longer, as was recently seen on the M8.
The Road Haulage industry should be paying for the true costs of its operations, right now many of these costs are not added up and highlighted.
Edited for quoting.
Edited by munroman on Saturday 18th December 20:44
^ Absolutely. My sister lives near Perth on an un-made road. She has to have winter tyres and experiences heavy snow for 2-3 weeks a year minimum.
I don't disagree at all - I was just saying that the Hauliers will never pay out off their own back.
You'll need to force them, and if you legisalte to force them, you'll have blockaded fuel depots and moans about "killing the industry".
I don't disagree at all - I was just saying that the Hauliers will never pay out off their own back.
You'll need to force them, and if you legisalte to force them, you'll have blockaded fuel depots and moans about "killing the industry".
WeirdNeville said:
Quite simply, it makes no financial sense for a hauliers to fit "winter" tyres across their fleet. I can't imagine the costs of kitting a full HGV and trailers with winter tyres - it must be tens of thousands.
If a lorry jacknifes the haulier looses it for 12-24 hours. If they're unlucky they might loose a refigerated load of have to pay out a bit for lost revenue on a delayed delivery. I doubt that they fatally damage any vehicles by jacknifing. IF they happen to crash, they are insured.
They care not a jot about the ensuing "traffic chaos!" or the fact they shut motorways. They've lost a lorry for the day and thats it.
There is a fine line between balancing the needs of an important industry with the needs of the nation. Compulsion is one way to do it, but being realistic, snow and winter weather affects the UK 1-2 weeks a year. There is not enough reason to compell hauliers to fit winter tyres across the fleet. UNtil there's legislation or huge insurance to pay if you don't, they simply wont do it, just as most private motorists refuse to pay £500-£1000 to fit them to their own cars.
I take it you don't run a transport firm then!If a lorry jacknifes the haulier looses it for 12-24 hours. If they're unlucky they might loose a refigerated load of have to pay out a bit for lost revenue on a delayed delivery. I doubt that they fatally damage any vehicles by jacknifing. IF they happen to crash, they are insured.
They care not a jot about the ensuing "traffic chaos!" or the fact they shut motorways. They've lost a lorry for the day and thats it.
There is a fine line between balancing the needs of an important industry with the needs of the nation. Compulsion is one way to do it, but being realistic, snow and winter weather affects the UK 1-2 weeks a year. There is not enough reason to compell hauliers to fit winter tyres across the fleet. UNtil there's legislation or huge insurance to pay if you don't, they simply wont do it, just as most private motorists refuse to pay £500-£1000 to fit them to their own cars.
I should imagine for any firm say running say 10 vehicles, one single major crash where the vehicle is off the road for a week. The costs involved would cover the outlay of equipping said fleet. It's only the drive wheels that need them on trucks to keep them mobile & safe as the drive wheels also do much of the braking. As in Germany its law to have them on the drive axles.
As we may be moving towards a climate more like Germany has had in recent years, I presume that many of the things which have worked in Germany could be copied here.
For example, I have heard that they don't use salt, is that true, and if so, presumably the cost of the salt would offset having winter tyres?
I think we are far too ready to give up when we get a little snow, but also the lack of tolerance in the 'system' is really scary, all it takes is a few days of cold weather and the country is on its knees.
If only I worked for my Local Authority, where people who were 'unable to get to work due to the snow' were given 3 days paid absence, including some who live less than 1/2 mile from work.
97% of Care Staff made it into work, only 67% of the others did.
Guess what decision those who did make the effort to get to work will make next time it snows, when others got 3 days 'holiday'?
For example, I have heard that they don't use salt, is that true, and if so, presumably the cost of the salt would offset having winter tyres?
I think we are far too ready to give up when we get a little snow, but also the lack of tolerance in the 'system' is really scary, all it takes is a few days of cold weather and the country is on its knees.
If only I worked for my Local Authority, where people who were 'unable to get to work due to the snow' were given 3 days paid absence, including some who live less than 1/2 mile from work.
97% of Care Staff made it into work, only 67% of the others did.
Guess what decision those who did make the effort to get to work will make next time it snows, when others got 3 days 'holiday'?
I had missed this when I started my thread, but my thoughts are very similar to OP.
I have noticed a common theme over the past few days. Whenever motorways or dual carriageways get totally jammed up in snow, at the front of the queue on a gentle gradient will be one or two HGVs which have lost traction.
I know that in the bad weather a few weeks ago the Police were not letting HGVs head North between Newcastle and Scotland on the A1.
Would it not help keep the roads moving and hence people getting home to have a rule. If it snows Lorry's park-up or put chains on.
While they might argue it's going to be inconvenient for them, it seems that they are going to get stuck anyway and inconvenience hundreds of people in the process?
Thoughts?
I have noticed a common theme over the past few days. Whenever motorways or dual carriageways get totally jammed up in snow, at the front of the queue on a gentle gradient will be one or two HGVs which have lost traction.
I know that in the bad weather a few weeks ago the Police were not letting HGVs head North between Newcastle and Scotland on the A1.
Would it not help keep the roads moving and hence people getting home to have a rule. If it snows Lorry's park-up or put chains on.
While they might argue it's going to be inconvenient for them, it seems that they are going to get stuck anyway and inconvenience hundreds of people in the process?
Thoughts?
Gizmo! said:
Ocado fit all their vans with winter tyres.
I'm tempted to order from them simply because I think it's an excellent and responsible thing to do.
Ocado are extremely good at delivering when all the supermarkets have given up. It makes sound business sense for them to keep the vans running despite the weather, because they have no other way to sell their produce. I'm tempted to order from them simply because I think it's an excellent and responsible thing to do.
The big supermarkets will cancel their deliveries at the first hint of snow and leave the goods on the supermarket shelf for someone else to buy, or expect you to go and buy the stuff for yourself.
One thing a lot of you miss about the cost to hauliers is that truck tyres don't last as long as car tyres time wise as they generally do a far higher mileage so could be changed two or three times or more per year. Added to the fact that a lot of hauliers who carry their own tyre stocks will have more than one set of wheels and tyres made up so it wouldn't be that difficult or more expensive in the long run to have different tyres for the time of year.
As for the cost of an accident, they can cost a lot of money, how much would a few hundred yards of Armco, the price of resurfacing a road after a diesel spill or a new cab cost if a truck jackknifes plus the down time or damage or injury to other road users, we had one small accident that cost our company over £150K in hire charges alone this year, our excess is £250K.
A lot of the problem with trucks getting stuck is that some truck drivers have no idea what they are doing behind the wheel and nothing to do with tyres.
As for the cost of an accident, they can cost a lot of money, how much would a few hundred yards of Armco, the price of resurfacing a road after a diesel spill or a new cab cost if a truck jackknifes plus the down time or damage or injury to other road users, we had one small accident that cost our company over £150K in hire charges alone this year, our excess is £250K.
A lot of the problem with trucks getting stuck is that some truck drivers have no idea what they are doing behind the wheel and nothing to do with tyres.
jagracer said:
A lot of the problem with trucks getting stuck is that some truck drivers have no idea what they are doing behind the wheel and nothing to do with tyres.
Steerers, not drivers.I didn't really learn how to drive until I was teamed up with a clog-wearing old hand for six months.
He was daft as a brush, mad as a hatter, but he really knew how to drive.
He was also most derogatory about the people who worked for the big companies like Stobbart, Dentressangle etc
Rubin215 said:
jagracer said:
A lot of the problem with trucks getting stuck is that some truck drivers have no idea what they are doing behind the wheel and nothing to do with tyres.
Steerers, not drivers.I didn't really learn how to drive until I was teamed up with a clog-wearing old hand for six months.
He was daft as a brush, mad as a hatter, but he really knew how to drive.
He was also most derogatory about the people who worked for the big companies like Stobbart, Dentressangle etc
munroman said:
As we may be moving towards a climate more like Germany has had in recent years, I presume that many of the things which have worked in Germany could be copied here.
For example, I have heard that they don't use salt, is that true, and if so, presumably the cost of the salt would offset having winter tyres?
The germans do use salt, the gritter just drove past my house and covered my car in it!!!!!!!!!For example, I have heard that they don't use salt, is that true, and if so, presumably the cost of the salt would offset having winter tyres?
As has been stated already, german law is that all hgvs have to have winter tires on drive axles, and this is not just German registered vehicles, its all vehicles in the country. Makes complete sense imo.
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