Engine woes update

[steve j]

O.K. here goes, the crankshaft sprocket is rotating quite merrily on the shaft, i.e. the woodruff key has gone hopefully it`s in the sump . So here comes the questions, is the 2.9 a safe engine????? why would a woodruff key just come out???? especially on a crank sprocket and would it do it again???? What actually stops the crank sprocket from moving fowards on the shaft??? sorry if that sounds a daft question. This could be a cheap fix or, ouch that hurts Oh and the camshaft still operates the valve gear although it appears to be quite difficult to turn with a ratchet and torx bit. Gentlemen, your thoughts and answers are gratefully rscieved, now I can stop grovelling

[Barkychoc]

The woodruff key must have sheared off Steve.

The woodruff key cannot come out while its in one piece due to its shape - so something has happened to it - I guess the question is whether its the cause of your problem or the symptom of something else.

Think like a garage - chuck another key in and see what happens.

Edited by Barkychoc on Friday 8th October 18:43

[phillpot]

From memory its the same long key that aligns timing chain sprocket and front pulley, was there any sign of it (or remains of it) when the pulley came off ?
Don't see that it could go inwards (into the engine), doesn't the keyway end at the shoulder on the crankshaft that stops the sprocket going on too far ? So it must have come out forwards some how or sheared ?

Generally these engines are pretty tough old things, certainly don't think this is a known weakness or fault.

[mep12345]

Steve,

If you are having real snags with the engine and find major damage give me a shout I bought Norms last breakers engine off him and only wanted the sump - could come to a deal on other bits you need - 2 good heads and valves, push rods, short engine etc.

As I work in Bristol getting it to you shouldn't be too bad - my phone number is in Sprint or email me

Mark

[steve j]

phillpot said:

From memory its the same long key that aligns timing chain sprocket and front pulley, was there any sign of it (or remains of it) when the pulley came off ?
Don't see that it could go inwards (into the engine), doesn't the keyway end at the shoulder on the crankshaft that stops the sprocket going on too far ? So it must have come out forwards some how or sheared ?

Generally these engines are pretty tough old things, certainly don't think this is a known weakness or fault.

From what I can see the balance pulley has one key and it`s seperate from the sprocket as the pulley key is still in place. I can see a slot behind the sprocket for a key which led me to think it has fallen from behind the sprocket into the sump.

[steve j]

Thanks for the kind offer Mark, I`ll let you know if I need anything , not brakes though

[mep12345]

steve j said:

Thanks for the kind offer Mark, I`ll let you know if I need anything , not brakes though

[steve j]

Another update fellas, the crankshaft timing chain sprocket has the woodruff as part of the casting, i,e it`s on the rear face of the sprocket. The sprocket butts up against the shoulder face on the shaft which has a cut out for the woodruff key. So there is no physical lock to hold the sprocket in place unless of course the pulley retaining bolt acts on it?, anyway the damage so far seems minimal .

[Barkychoc]

Not exactly sure what you mean Steve - can you post a pic?

[steve j]

Hopefully this makes more sense, the woodruff is on the rear face of the sprocket, the sprocket slides onto the crank and stops against the shoulder. The woodruff mates with the corresponding slot on the shoulder.

[Barkychoc]

Makes sense now - and I would suggest that it must be the crank pulley that pushes up against the crank.

Could you tell before you took it to bits if the chain was moving or was it not moving?

How tight was the crankshaft pulley - it couldn't have just come loose could it? Not uncommon on the V8.

[steve j]

Barkychoc said:

Makes sense now - and I would suggest that it must be the crank pulley that pushes up against the crank.

Could you tell before you took it to bits if the chain was moving or was it not moving?

How tight was the crankshaft pulley - it couldn't have just come loose could it? Not uncommon on the V8.

I was driving the car Chris, then lost all power the chain was intact, as were all the other components. The crank pulley bolt was reasonably tight, I suppose it could have loosened, that does make sense. It was all tight on removal though, so I could have had a weak sprocket? The chain was moving along with the two timing gears.

[Barkychoc]

If the chain is moving when you rotate the crank pulley (not what you said in the original thread but I know how difficult it can be to tell) and the cam isn't turning then it has to be an issue at the sprocket end of the cam.
Either woodruff key again, or even a snapped cam at the pulley end, though never heard of it on the ford V6 but have on cerberas.

By the way if you haven't done it yet it will be worth removing the bonnet - have you got a garage?
If so put some old carpet on the floor and screw some to the back wall in the top corners out the way of where the bonnet will be - remove the indicators (!) disconnect wiring and with the bonnet on its prop pack some carpet under the front edge of the bonnet so it is supported - then undo the hinges and it won't move much - then just raise it forwards and lean it against the back wall.
Be careful if you do it on your own - if you tip it too far forwards it gets bloody heavy and hard to control - you know how I know that....


I wrote the entry below cos I thought the chain wasn't moving - I'll leave it in anyway

OK - if the chain wasn't moving this would have been my guess - left in cos I spent 20 minutes head scratching and typing it

I think the crank pulley has come loose - then the crank sprocket has slipped out of the key position - and thats then taken up the slack between the crank pulley and crank (its jammed in the extra space from it coming loose) so when you tried to undo the pulley it was tight.
At this point I'd get the crank sprocket lined up with the crank keyway and tighten up the crank pulley (maybe without putting the cover back on just to try it if you took it off) then try manually turning the crank pulley again to see if the distributor turns.
If you've got something like a bit of steel tube that you could use instead of the crank pulley you might see what's going on a bit more clearly.

Edited by Barkychoc on Saturday 16th October 21:29

Edited by Barkychoc on Saturday 16th October 21:32

[steve j]

Here`s my plan Chris, I`m going to put the timing gear back on the car minus the cover. Remove the plugs, distributor cap and both rocker covers and turn the engine on the crank, this will hopefully tell me if any valves have been clobbered. I will get a new crank sprocket as the existing one has slight damage. As it`s nearly winter and I have a few jobs to do, I may take the heads off for a good inspection and clean up.

[steve j]

Ok the timing gear has been assembled and turned the engine over on the crank, 360 degrees rotation on the distributor and no issues. I`m going to need a new crank sprocket and pulley, the pulley broke on removal .

[tvrgit]

Steve

I still suspect your woodruff key has broken. Here's a pic of each side of a new chain sprocket as supplied by Ford (it's about 15 years old, but it's never been fitted, I bought a new chain kit for my old Granada, fitted the cam sprocket and chain, but not the flywheel sprocket, can't remember why):



You can see the cut-out for the woodruff key. The front end of the same key, locates the cranksgaft pulley. I suspect what you've got is a chunk of woodruff key jammed in the sprocket, and the rest of it in the sump.

Edited by tvrgit on Sunday 17th October 15:03

[steve j]

tvrgit said:

Steve

I still suspect your woodruff key has broken. Here's a pic of each side of a new chain sprocket as supplied by Ford (it's about 15 years old, but it's never been fitted, I bought a new chain kit for my old Granada, fitted the cam sprocket and chain, but not the flywheel sprocket, can't remember why):



You can see the cut-out for the woodruff key. The front end of the same key, locates the cranksgaft pulley. I suspect what you've got is a chunk of woodruff key jammed in the sprocket, and the rest of it in the sump.

Edited by tvrgit on Sunday 17th October 15:03

Hi tvrgit, thanks for the pics, mine is not like that at all, no slot on the sprocket for a key, also only one slot for a key on the crank and the balance pulley covers that. It would appear we have two types of timing gears then.

Edited by steve j on Sunday 17th October 15:49

[Barkychoc]

tvrgit said:

I suspect what you've got is a chunk of woodruff key jammed in the sprocket, and the rest of it in the sump.

Yes good call - you could well be right.

[tvrgit]

Barkychoc said:

tvrgit said:

I suspect what you've got is a chunk of woodruff key jammed in the sprocket, and the rest of it in the sump.

Yes good call - you could well be right.

I remember when I did the front oil seal on the S about 5 years ago, it was the same as the Granada I did 10 years before. Both are 1990 cars. Here's a photo of the crankshaft pulley off the TVR at that time



(this website blog lark comes in handy sometimes eh?) The photo was taken to show that the tw@@s at Ford had sold me the wrong oil seal at the time, so it wasn't really meant to show the method of location. Nevertheless, you can clearly see the cutout in the rear of the pulley shaft, that slots over the woodruff key - it's the same shape and size as the slot in the sprocket I posted earlier.

Steve's photo, however, seems to show a "lug" that is much deeper than the woodruff key slot, so it doesn't LOOK like the same setup. But Steve's car is much the same age - why would Ford have produced the same engine with different timing chain and front pulley locator systems?

That was why I wanted to make sure it definitely isn't a mashed-up bit of Woodruff key jammed in there.

Edited by tvrgit on Sunday 17th October 18:54

[Barkychoc]

I think Ford, Vauxhall and other mass market manufacturers never put their eggs in one backet - so they can't be held to ransom by a supplier - for example motorcraft / bosch distributors, and I've had cars that can have one of two different manufacturers braking components - ATE or Teves IIRC, I seem to think it was on a sierra but I'd have thought that would have come up on here if so.

Anyway back to the plot - is there anything in a haynes manual supplement about any changes to crank etc?