And, the rose-tinted specs fall away...
Discussion
Just got back from my first trip to the UK since early 2005 and a few changes were noticeable...
First, cameras - they're everywhere. I understand we're living in a new paranoia, but even at the height of the IRA's campaign I don't remember seeing this much surveillance on the streets. It really felt oppressive.
Second, where have all the off-licences, bookshops and music shops gone? The supermarkets do a fine range of beer, but they all sem to do the same fine range of beer. And I know you can buy books and music online, but there was always something entertaining about browsing for this in a shop.
Lastly, it felt cheap. I don't just mean that prices were comparitively low - anyone who thinks Australia is a cheap place to live has clearly never lived here - but that there was a feeling of low-rent, 'that'll do' mentality about the place. Hard to provide examples, but the area I lived in for 15 years was always at the bottom of the social ladder and now it didn't feel so far from the rest.
So, what happened? Has the country really changed that much, or has my lengthy break highlighted my own changes??
First, cameras - they're everywhere. I understand we're living in a new paranoia, but even at the height of the IRA's campaign I don't remember seeing this much surveillance on the streets. It really felt oppressive.
Second, where have all the off-licences, bookshops and music shops gone? The supermarkets do a fine range of beer, but they all sem to do the same fine range of beer. And I know you can buy books and music online, but there was always something entertaining about browsing for this in a shop.
Lastly, it felt cheap. I don't just mean that prices were comparitively low - anyone who thinks Australia is a cheap place to live has clearly never lived here - but that there was a feeling of low-rent, 'that'll do' mentality about the place. Hard to provide examples, but the area I lived in for 15 years was always at the bottom of the social ladder and now it didn't feel so far from the rest.
So, what happened? Has the country really changed that much, or has my lengthy break highlighted my own changes??
ewenm said:
Where did you go?
I'm not sure about this but there may be clues in the profile name, in the profile and possibly a couple of clues in the first post? Possibly. 
EDIT OP Having spent a couple of weeks in and around Melbourne back in February if you'd care to share, how do you compare living in the land of Oz compared with the UK in particular a year or so after leaving the UK?
Edited by Digger on Sunday 3rd October 12:00
Digger said:
ewenm said:
Where did you go?
I'm not sure about this but there may be clues in the profile name, in the profile and possibly a couple of clues in the first post? Possibly. PomBstard said:
So, what happened?
It became a s
thole. Simple as that really. The causes - good god, where do we start? Labour, yes, overcrowding through a complete failure to manage the immigration/emigration balance, no investment in infrastructure, leading to even more of a drai non what there is from the aforementioned overcrowding, a complete lack of respect from far too much of the populace, the whole "chav culture" thing.......etc etc.It almost makes me weep at times - you can find any amount of fantastic, beautiful places in the UK, but you'll find just as areas full of oxygen thieves intent, whether consciously or not, on destroying it.
If I could convince those close to me to come along, I'd be off out of here. And the fact that I feel like that saddens me immensely too.
ewenm said:
Digger said:
ewenm said:
Where did you go?
I'm not sure about this but there may be clues in the profile name, in the profile and possibly a couple of clues in the first post? Possibly. 
. ewenm said:
Sounds like London to me so, despite what most of the media and many PHers would have us believe, not representative of the UK as a whole.
Much though I like Bath, it's a bit 'provincial' to write off London like that. The day-time population is basically one third of the entire country. And our other big cities are not that different...ewenm said:
Where did you go?
London, Bristol, Birmingham, Somerset, Poole and a few places in between. Granted, its not necessarily representative of the UK as a whole, but it pretty much covers most of the 30 years I spent living there. The only place that would have completed my own experiences would have been South Yorkshire, just didn't have the time to get there.As for the cameras, these were most noticeable outside of London - almost expected in London, but perhaps not so much outside.
Countryside is still beautiful, though - miss that.
grumbledoak said:
ewenm said:
Sounds like London to me so, despite what most of the media and many PHers would have us believe, not representative of the UK as a whole.
Much though I like Bath, it's a bit 'provincial' to write off London like that. The day-time population is basically one third of the entire country. And our other big cities are not that different...ewenm said:
grumbledoak said:
ewenm said:
Sounds like London to me so, despite what most of the media and many PHers would have us believe, not representative of the UK as a whole.
Much though I like Bath, it's a bit 'provincial' to write off London like that. The day-time population is basically one third of the entire country. And our other big cities are not that different...I find part of the problem is that the country doesn't feel confident enough to define Britishness any more. It felt like we were getting there with the whole Britpop thing in the early '90s, but Blair ruined all that by hijacking the cultural agenda. Over the last ten years, we've been told how to be British by centralised, intensely politically-correct quangos. Annoyingly, swathes of the population seem to have fallen for it, all ready now to take offence at our sense of humour, ban our traditions on health and safety grounds, treat everyone like potential criminals and dismiss important future industries as 'uneconomic' whilst the rest of Europe (Germany in particular) casually addresses it's deficit by, strangely enough, building things that people want to buy.
I think it's left the population demoralised. I'm also concerned that we seem to be becoming increasingly helpless as a population, leaping out at 'crutches' whenever possible, be they binge drinking, Class-A drug addiction, benefits, racking up enormous debts on empty-headed advertising-directed high-street splurges, or expecting electronic gadgets to do absolutely everything for us so we don't have to learn any skills, and these 'crutches' have effectively been 'sponsored' by the government as a kind of 'opiate of the people'. And all the while they casually took away freedoms that people were willing to die to protect in previous centuries.
People always used to say that a defining characteristic of Britishness was 'resolve', that sense of staring adversity in the face, 'pulling yourself together' and weathering the storm. Now, just listen to all the whinging and whining and moaning and complaining because thanks to the deficit we might have to put up with a lower (though hardly poverty-stricken) standard of living and might have to work a bit harder and not be able to afford quite so many 'crutches'. I'm surprised someone doesn't invade us right now for fun, just to see how easy it would be.
I think it's left the population demoralised. I'm also concerned that we seem to be becoming increasingly helpless as a population, leaping out at 'crutches' whenever possible, be they binge drinking, Class-A drug addiction, benefits, racking up enormous debts on empty-headed advertising-directed high-street splurges, or expecting electronic gadgets to do absolutely everything for us so we don't have to learn any skills, and these 'crutches' have effectively been 'sponsored' by the government as a kind of 'opiate of the people'. And all the while they casually took away freedoms that people were willing to die to protect in previous centuries.
People always used to say that a defining characteristic of Britishness was 'resolve', that sense of staring adversity in the face, 'pulling yourself together' and weathering the storm. Now, just listen to all the whinging and whining and moaning and complaining because thanks to the deficit we might have to put up with a lower (though hardly poverty-stricken) standard of living and might have to work a bit harder and not be able to afford quite so many 'crutches'. I'm surprised someone doesn't invade us right now for fun, just to see how easy it would be.
I think it's just "different" to Oz tbh - rather than "gone down hill" to use the commonly quoted phrase.
I felt the same when after four years I came back but realised it's just not the same as Oz. Simple as that really.
Before this turns into a UK is st thread can I just point out Oz has just as many problems as the UK its just that you can winge about it on the beach or at the park while having a BBQ. 
I felt the same when after four years I came back but realised it's just not the same as Oz. Simple as that really.
Before this turns into a UK is s
t thread can I just point out Oz has just as many problems as the UK its just that you can winge about it on the beach or at the park while having a BBQ. PomBstard said:
First, cameras - they're everywhere. I understand we're living in a new paranoia, but even at the height of the IRA's campaign I don't remember seeing this much surveillance on the streets. It really felt oppressive.
There are a lot cameras, particularly around shops. However, I don't really see why any law abiding citizen should have any problem with these. After all, they have already helped to solve many a crime, helped to trace missing persons and so on. I'm sure they also act as an effective deterrent in the fight against city centre crime.PomBstard said:
Second, where have all the off-licences, bookshops and music shops gone?
They have been swallowed up by large supermarket chains. There are still a few music shops around, you just have to look harder for them.PomBstard said:
Lastly, it felt cheap. I don't just mean that prices were comparitively low - anyone who thinks Australia is a cheap place to live has clearly never lived here - but that there was a feeling of low-rent, 'that'll do' mentality about the place.
In some areas I would agree with this. There are many things being done "to a price" these days, rather than to a standard of finish.PomBstard said:
... anyone who thinks Australia is a cheap place to live has clearly never lived here...
When I emigrated from SA in the mid '90s, I considered Australia as a possible destination. At the time, I had some good friends over there, who were advising me on jobs / accommodation etc.But I deemed it to be far too expensive. Relative to salaries, I thought the cost of property was high in comparison to SA and the UK.
I also know of many South Africans who moved to Australia and have since returned to SA because they found it was way to expensive to live there.
PomBstard said:
So, what happened? Has the country really changed that much, or has my lengthy break highlighted my own changes??
Apart from the security cameras and the appalling roads, probably not!TonyRPH said:
There are a lot cameras, particularly around shops. However, I don't really see why any law abiding citizen should have any problem with these. After all, they have already helped to solve many a crime, helped to trace missing persons and so on. I'm sure they also act as an effective deterrent in the fight against city centre crime.
Cameras have been almost useless in 'solving crime'. Last figure I heard was circa 3%. Just 3. For ALL that cost, invasion of privacy and general feeling of 'being watched' all the time. They don't act as a deterrent to crime, they simply move it elsewhere at best. Or not, in the case of hoody-wearing neanderthals.I hate CCTV and cameras, I hate thinking that I'm being monitored all the time under the false pretence of 'safety'.
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