Leaking Shower
Discussion
So we had a new bathroom fitted that included a 1200 x 800 solid stone shower tray (travertine). We put colour matched 100 x 100 tiles on the walls. We've managed to use the shower in two go's for 1 1/2 weeks.
End of the first week we came downstairs to find a puddle under the light fitting beneath the bathroom. This followed 10 showers. Prior to that we'd used the bath / basin / loo for a good few weeks with no problems. The diagnosis; shower leaking somewhere. The plumber came in an re-did the silicone seal between the trap and the tray. Chucked 8 of those large Monkey buckets direct down the trap and no leaks. Chucked 8 large Monkey buckets at the joint between the wall and the tray and no leaks. I then ran the cold feed of the shower only for about 20 mins and no leaks. That brought us to Monday just gone. Monday and Tuesday plumber said just use the shower, he didn't think there was a problem with the waste side due the test volumes of water, and he didn't think that it was the supply side as that's all under pressure and we'd have seen a leak way earlier.
Two days of using the shower (4 uses at around 10-15mins each) and I think I spotted a damp-line in the ceiling. Plumbers interpretation is that there is a problem with the tiles. Now I'm pretty sure that they were sealed after they were installed, but they're the honed (& filled?) travertine tiles and are not a completely smooth and have the odd hole here and there.
Given we've used up all our spare tiles and that the floor is also tiled, I'm reluctant to give an instruction to break out the odd tile to see what's going on. And lifting the tray isn't an option; it took four guys to shift it into place and it's now topped off with a 1200 x 2000 single shower screen.
Does anyone know of a remidial action I can try before ripping out a nice new bathroom? Some sort of waterproof sealant that can be applied to the face of the tiles/grout that would act as a better skin that what may be there at the moment. I've not had chance to contact the tiler yet for his input. I can see how this could go; plumber says we've tested everything it's not my stuff, tiler has been paid so no incentive to come back. Help please!!
Dr Rick
End of the first week we came downstairs to find a puddle under the light fitting beneath the bathroom. This followed 10 showers. Prior to that we'd used the bath / basin / loo for a good few weeks with no problems. The diagnosis; shower leaking somewhere. The plumber came in an re-did the silicone seal between the trap and the tray. Chucked 8 of those large Monkey buckets direct down the trap and no leaks. Chucked 8 large Monkey buckets at the joint between the wall and the tray and no leaks. I then ran the cold feed of the shower only for about 20 mins and no leaks. That brought us to Monday just gone. Monday and Tuesday plumber said just use the shower, he didn't think there was a problem with the waste side due the test volumes of water, and he didn't think that it was the supply side as that's all under pressure and we'd have seen a leak way earlier.
Two days of using the shower (4 uses at around 10-15mins each) and I think I spotted a damp-line in the ceiling. Plumbers interpretation is that there is a problem with the tiles. Now I'm pretty sure that they were sealed after they were installed, but they're the honed (& filled?) travertine tiles and are not a completely smooth and have the odd hole here and there.
Given we've used up all our spare tiles and that the floor is also tiled, I'm reluctant to give an instruction to break out the odd tile to see what's going on. And lifting the tray isn't an option; it took four guys to shift it into place and it's now topped off with a 1200 x 2000 single shower screen.
Does anyone know of a remidial action I can try before ripping out a nice new bathroom? Some sort of waterproof sealant that can be applied to the face of the tiles/grout that would act as a better skin that what may be there at the moment. I've not had chance to contact the tiler yet for his input. I can see how this could go; plumber says we've tested everything it's not my stuff, tiler has been paid so no incentive to come back. Help please!!
Dr Rick
I would have thought water soaking into the tiles would have just resulted in the wall becoming damp rather than volumes of water running down to floor level and through the floor, unless the holes in the tiles are substantial.
One option would be to make a neat hole in the ceiling directly below the shower to determine whether the problem is with the wastage fittings or pipe. A small repair and paint job will needed, but would be my first step.
One option would be to make a neat hole in the ceiling directly below the shower to determine whether the problem is with the wastage fittings or pipe. A small repair and paint job will needed, but would be my first step.
I've had exactly this problem. You can get water ingress down behind tiles, and the flow can be up to a steady drip, but this would need the grouting to be quite bad.
More likely is the plumbing, or the seal between the shower tray and the walls / enclosure.
If your shower tray has a flat top, with no upstand, it is entirely reliant on the silicone to keep the water in. This is a really poor idea, I'm amazed people make showers like this - I fitted two of them and they're terrible! Much better are the ones with an upstand around them, which the tiles and enclosure then come down inside.
My solution was eventually to replace the shower with an enclosure type that doesn't require any silicone.
Cheers,
FT.
More likely is the plumbing, or the seal between the shower tray and the walls / enclosure.
If your shower tray has a flat top, with no upstand, it is entirely reliant on the silicone to keep the water in. This is a really poor idea, I'm amazed people make showers like this - I fitted two of them and they're terrible! Much better are the ones with an upstand around them, which the tiles and enclosure then come down inside.
My solution was eventually to replace the shower with an enclosure type that doesn't require any silicone.
Cheers,
FT.
mgtony said:
I would have thought water soaking into the tiles would have just resulted in the wall becoming damp rather than volumes of water running down to floor level and through the floor, unless the holes in the tiles are substantial.
One option would be to make a neat hole in the ceiling directly below the shower to determine whether the problem is with the wastage fittings or pipe. A small repair and paint job will needed, but would be my first step.
I can see the back surface of one of the two walls in the shower (the one with the shower on itself) as we put it in. I'll double check tonight, but I can't recall seeing any water running down. The other wall is between the shower and the bedroom and is original.One option would be to make a neat hole in the ceiling directly below the shower to determine whether the problem is with the wastage fittings or pipe. A small repair and paint job will needed, but would be my first step.
The hole in the ceiling idea is interesting. The ceiling is original lath/plaster and the void between the joists is filled with the usual vintage dust / slag / insulation mix that you get in 150yr old properties. I suppose I could use the light fitting as a way to see up into the gap.
It just seems odd that the serious amouts of water we tested with 16 large Monkey buckets of water didn't yield anything and yet, once using the shower on standard flow it's possibly showing again.
Fume troll said:
I've had exactly this problem. You can get water ingress down behind tiles, and the flow can be up to a steady drip, but this would need the grouting to be quite bad.
More likely is the plumbing, or the seal between the shower tray and the walls / enclosure.
If your shower tray has a flat top, with no upstand, it is entirely reliant on the silicone to keep the water in. This is a really poor idea, I'm amazed people make showers like this - I fitted two of them and they're terrible! Much better are the ones with an upstand around them, which the tiles and enclosure then come down inside.
My solution was eventually to replace the shower with an enclosure type that doesn't require any silicone.
Cheers,
FT.
The grouting is fine to look at; no cracks, no gaps. But water has a way of getting into places you wouldn't guess at.More likely is the plumbing, or the seal between the shower tray and the walls / enclosure.
If your shower tray has a flat top, with no upstand, it is entirely reliant on the silicone to keep the water in. This is a really poor idea, I'm amazed people make showers like this - I fitted two of them and they're terrible! Much better are the ones with an upstand around them, which the tiles and enclosure then come down inside.
My solution was eventually to replace the shower with an enclosure type that doesn't require any silicone.
Cheers,
FT.
The tray doesn't have an upstand outside the screen or behind the tiles. It slopes inwards enough for water to run into the tray but that's it. Given the grief and cost of getting a solid stone tray and tiles, I'm not going to get rid and replace. Others will have bought this and not had problems.
There's something niggling at the back of my mind though about the supply side. Plumber ran a new cold feed as part of the whole bathroom job. Originally we were going for an electric shower but couldn't get the pressure to make it run (heater in loft was too high for normal operating flow rates). So we swapped to a thermo-mixer valve set up. The hot feed for that has come from a pipe that was originally used for a shower by the previous owners but had been blanked off by the time we appeared. I know the argument of under pressure at all times would give a leak at all times if it's there, but its a niggle in my mind none the less. The leaks have only shown up under normal showering procedure.
Dr Rick
If the mixer valve is behind/in the wall; could be leaking between the valve and the rest of the shower but only when the valve is open. If it's a power shower, there may not be enough pressure to make the leak serious unless the pump's running.
Alternatively, it could be your weight on the shower tray when using it that's opening up a gap in the sealing somewhere.
Alternatively, it could be your weight on the shower tray when using it that's opening up a gap in the sealing somewhere.
First post so be kind....
I had exactly the same problem except it took a few years before the leak got bad enough to start leaking although we did have brown marks on the celing below the shower.
I removed the ceiling below in the end to work out what was going on.
The shower is tiled from floor to ceiling on all sides and I assumed the leak was the silicone at the base. Removed it all and relaced it. Removed the door and did the same. The shower could run forever and not leak through the waste or the pipes but when I had a shower it would leak on one side only.
What has happened (I have to assume) is that the grout has become porous over time and the water was getting behind the tiles and running down between the wall and tiles (best guess from looking underneath!). The grout is complete with nothing missing.
My solution (and this will not help you) was too CAREFULLY silicone over the grout and this has fixed the leak.
Moral of the story, even if the grout looks OK it can still let water through. Best solution is too used a different shower tray next time.
Thanks
Alex
I had exactly the same problem except it took a few years before the leak got bad enough to start leaking although we did have brown marks on the celing below the shower.
I removed the ceiling below in the end to work out what was going on.
The shower is tiled from floor to ceiling on all sides and I assumed the leak was the silicone at the base. Removed it all and relaced it. Removed the door and did the same. The shower could run forever and not leak through the waste or the pipes but when I had a shower it would leak on one side only.
What has happened (I have to assume) is that the grout has become porous over time and the water was getting behind the tiles and running down between the wall and tiles (best guess from looking underneath!). The grout is complete with nothing missing.
My solution (and this will not help you) was too CAREFULLY silicone over the grout and this has fixed the leak.
Moral of the story, even if the grout looks OK it can still let water through. Best solution is too used a different shower tray next time.
Thanks
Alex
@ defblade - Yep, that's an idea. I'll look this evening at the rear of the valve. I'm tempted to go with the silicone seal anyway.
@ alex rsa - Th grout is new (about a month old), but I'm not sure of the porosity. That's why I'm wondering about a clear polyurethane type sealant over the whole lot.
@louiebaby - It's a mixer so I turned on the shower enough to get the cold water running only, left our the hot. I'm desparately trying to avoid removing any ceilings!
@ukwill - que? Installation was done by a bathroom guy. I will ask. This isn't something I've had to do before so I've never heard of ditramat.
Dr Rick
@ alex rsa - Th grout is new (about a month old), but I'm not sure of the porosity. That's why I'm wondering about a clear polyurethane type sealant over the whole lot.
@louiebaby - It's a mixer so I turned on the shower enough to get the cold water running only, left our the hot. I'm desparately trying to avoid removing any ceilings!
@ukwill - que? Installation was done by a bathroom guy. I will ask. This isn't something I've had to do before so I've never heard of ditramat.
Dr Rick
vxsmithers said:
were you stood in the shower doing the bucket test?
could be that the weight of a person is opening a gap between shower and tile so water gets through when there is weight in the shower but closes when no one is in there...
just a thought anyway
Fair point, but given it took 4 guys to lift the tray on its own, is one person standing on it going to make that much of a difference? Could do I suppose. Incidentally, I was standing in the tray when I did the bucket-to wall test.could be that the weight of a person is opening a gap between shower and tile so water gets through when there is weight in the shower but closes when no one is in there...
just a thought anyway
Dr Rick
That was my thought ^^^^
150 year-old joists might not be very deep and an extra 12 stone or whatever may allow enough flex to open up a gap which then seals when you get out.
I had a nightmare with my place when I refurbished. I took out a length of wall downstairs and instead of a boxed-in RSJ put in a thick oak beam, newish wood, been cut about 7 years. Well over spec for the load. Upstairs, fitted a shower enclosure. No leaks. Until the oak started drying out, twisting and doing what new oak does. No amount of sealing worked for more than a few days. Solution? Wait 18 months. Reseal. No leaks.
There's a real market waiting out there for a shower that is designed to be watertight rather relying on silicone or seals. Or does one exist?
150 year-old joists might not be very deep and an extra 12 stone or whatever may allow enough flex to open up a gap which then seals when you get out.
I had a nightmare with my place when I refurbished. I took out a length of wall downstairs and instead of a boxed-in RSJ put in a thick oak beam, newish wood, been cut about 7 years. Well over spec for the load. Upstairs, fitted a shower enclosure. No leaks. Until the oak started drying out, twisting and doing what new oak does. No amount of sealing worked for more than a few days. Solution? Wait 18 months. Reseal. No leaks.
There's a real market waiting out there for a shower that is designed to be watertight rather relying on silicone or seals. Or does one exist?
rovermorris999 said:
There's a real market waiting out there for a shower that is designed to be watertight rather relying on silicone or seals. Or does one exist?
There are quite a few, I've got one from Novellini. They come with four sides, so you don't tile the walls. Absolute doddle to install too, just bolt all the bits together, no silicone, no grout, no tiling. Water feed attaches with long flexy pipes and you shove the whole lot into the corner and slap on the edging strips etc.I wouldn't ever buy anything else ever again.
Cheers,
FT.
Edited by Fume troll on Wednesday 15th September 16:38
My ideas based around shower problems.
1. During first fix, shower trays should be installed into place and then you should silicone around them. The shower is then tiled. Then you silicone where the tiles meet the shower tray. This gives you two layers of silicone, tray to wall and then tray to tiles.
2. Most shower screens have a U shaped profile that attaches to the wall. The door/ glass enclosure then attaches to this and screws in from the side to hold it all together. We have found enclosures that have been installed and then the whole tray had been siliconed afterwards. This left the ~1 1/2" section where the profile sat on the tray un-siliconed. No matter how much silicone was put on afterwards to help helped.
If you take the shower screen off and then the profiles from the wall to find where the profile sat on the tray un-siliconed. This'll cause you problems.
3. Nearly all shower enclosures should only be silicones around the outside. It's quite common to find shower enclosures silcioned both sides of the uprights. Inside and outside the shower. This is a no no. Water can find a way past the siliconed bead and into the profile section. It then can't get out and builds up and up until it finds a way out. This then floods out all at once.
4. Any screw holes made in the tiles should have silicone smeared into the hole before putting a screw into it.
1. During first fix, shower trays should be installed into place and then you should silicone around them. The shower is then tiled. Then you silicone where the tiles meet the shower tray. This gives you two layers of silicone, tray to wall and then tray to tiles.
2. Most shower screens have a U shaped profile that attaches to the wall. The door/ glass enclosure then attaches to this and screws in from the side to hold it all together. We have found enclosures that have been installed and then the whole tray had been siliconed afterwards. This left the ~1 1/2" section where the profile sat on the tray un-siliconed. No matter how much silicone was put on afterwards to help helped.
If you take the shower screen off and then the profiles from the wall to find where the profile sat on the tray un-siliconed. This'll cause you problems.
3. Nearly all shower enclosures should only be silicones around the outside. It's quite common to find shower enclosures silcioned both sides of the uprights. Inside and outside the shower. This is a no no. Water can find a way past the siliconed bead and into the profile section. It then can't get out and builds up and up until it finds a way out. This then floods out all at once.
4. Any screw holes made in the tiles should have silicone smeared into the hole before putting a screw into it.
Had a leaking shower problem which I couldn't trace after doing all the usual investigations to wastes and feeds etc. I eventually decided to re-grout the fully tiled enclosure with epoxy grout which is completely waterproof, including around the edges where the tiles met the porcelain tray (no upstand iirc). Never had a leak afterwards. Be warned though, it's a bugger to use, sets quick and sticks like the proverbial so you need to work with small batches quickly. If it dries on the tiles you'll need a chisel to get it off. I'm surprised it isn't used more often, but the forum below helps explain why.
found this discussion on epoxy grouts..
http://www.tilersforums.co.uk/tile-adhesive-grout-...
found this discussion on epoxy grouts..
http://www.tilersforums.co.uk/tile-adhesive-grout-...
One more thing:
When tiling in showers, it's common for the tiles to be set in grout spread with a notched trowel. This makes it a lot easier to get the tiles flat and level.
If you're tiling something that really has to be waterproof, the grout behind / under the tiles should be spread with a straight edged trowel, so there are no voids in the grout.
Almost no-one actually does this as it's hard to do, but if you use a notched trowel you're reliant on only the wee bit of grout between the tiles, as the grout behind the tiles is full of gaps.
Cheers,
FT.
When tiling in showers, it's common for the tiles to be set in grout spread with a notched trowel. This makes it a lot easier to get the tiles flat and level.
If you're tiling something that really has to be waterproof, the grout behind / under the tiles should be spread with a straight edged trowel, so there are no voids in the grout.
Almost no-one actually does this as it's hard to do, but if you use a notched trowel you're reliant on only the wee bit of grout between the tiles, as the grout behind the tiles is full of gaps.
Cheers,
FT.
The shower was used again this morning (x2) and no line appeared in the ceiling downstairs. But I still don't trust it.
I had a really close look at the grout lines; there are a couple of settling cracks in the tray/floor joint which indicate that it's shifting a bit. Might also be one in the wall/tray joint. I'm tempted to re-seal the whole lot with the travertine tile sealer stuff and then go for clear silicone sealant on the direction change joints.
There's been mention of epoxy grouting, and the evil stuff that it is. I think I'll hold that one as a next-resort (not quite last resort, that's lifting tiles to have a look).
There were no leaks down the back of the shower valve unit as mentioned as a possible source. And yes, I reckon that the sealant has been forgotten beneath the channel that holds the screen to the wall. Typical. So I'll be dealing with that aswell.
The thing that gets me is that I'm the one who ends up fixing it as trades I've encountered all try to shirk responsibility and I feel the only way I'll get a reasonable job done, despite my lack of training or skill in some instances, is to do it myself.
Dr Rick
I had a really close look at the grout lines; there are a couple of settling cracks in the tray/floor joint which indicate that it's shifting a bit. Might also be one in the wall/tray joint. I'm tempted to re-seal the whole lot with the travertine tile sealer stuff and then go for clear silicone sealant on the direction change joints.
There's been mention of epoxy grouting, and the evil stuff that it is. I think I'll hold that one as a next-resort (not quite last resort, that's lifting tiles to have a look).
There were no leaks down the back of the shower valve unit as mentioned as a possible source. And yes, I reckon that the sealant has been forgotten beneath the channel that holds the screen to the wall. Typical. So I'll be dealing with that aswell.
The thing that gets me is that I'm the one who ends up fixing it as trades I've encountered all try to shirk responsibility and I feel the only way I'll get a reasonable job done, despite my lack of training or skill in some instances, is to do it myself.
Dr Rick
''The thing that gets me is that I'm the one who ends up fixing it as trades I've encountered all try to shirk responsibility and I feel the only way I'll get a reasonable job done, despite my lack of training or skill in some instances, is to do it myself.''
Had this on many occasion. So many either don't care or are too dim to work it out.
Had this on many occasion. So many either don't care or are too dim to work it out.
rovermorris999 said:
''The thing that gets me is that I'm the one who ends up fixing it as trades I've encountered all try to shirk responsibility and I feel the only way I'll get a reasonable job done, despite my lack of training or skill in some instances, is to do it myself.''
Had this on many occasion. So many either don't care or are too dim to work it out.
Our situation is that we have plenty of 'leverage' over the plumber. I held back the final payment of a couple of £k once this issue raised its head. Now we've sort of concluded that it may not be a plumbing problem we have to shift focus to the tiler. The tiler has been paid in full upon completion of his work (fair enough), so getting him to come back and deal with a problem is going to be tricky. If he grumbles I might try and strike a deal; I'll pay materials but not labour for example. Don't know, will cross that bridge when we get to it.Had this on many occasion. So many either don't care or are too dim to work it out.
Dr Rick
If it's an issue of tile porosity, ensure that they were fitted correctly in the first place- ie, impregnated to prevent porosity, and sealed.
Go to your local independant tile shop or go online and purchase a product called hg golvpolish. It's clear, dries matt, and can be used straight over the grout. When you clean the shower (if you choose this route) avoid flash or other cleaners. Wash down regularly with water, dry afterwards with an old towel, and sponge over with water and golvpolish 1/10.
Go to your local independant tile shop or go online and purchase a product called hg golvpolish. It's clear, dries matt, and can be used straight over the grout. When you clean the shower (if you choose this route) avoid flash or other cleaners. Wash down regularly with water, dry afterwards with an old towel, and sponge over with water and golvpolish 1/10.
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