It can't be...can it?
Discussion
[/URL]SSpongey said:
Don1 said:
Seriously, is it time to go back to school yet? Or is this now trolling?
Have a search of the forums - this is being built by one of us.
I can assure you, I am not "trolling" and I'm not a school child.Have a search of the forums - this is being built by one of us.
Thanks, I will look on the forums
Soovy said:
SSpongey said:
Don1 said:
Seriously, is it time to go back to school yet? Or is this now trolling?
Have a search of the forums - this is being built by one of us.
I can assure you, I am not "trolling" and I'm not a school child.Have a search of the forums - this is being built by one of us.
Thanks, I will look on the forums
Isn't there a real Speed 12 for sale at the moment?
SSpongey said:
Soovy said:
SSpongey said:
Don1 said:
Seriously, is it time to go back to school yet? Or is this now trolling?
Have a search of the forums - this is being built by one of us.
I can assure you, I am not "trolling" and I'm not a school child.Have a search of the forums - this is being built by one of us.
Thanks, I will look on the forums
Isn't there a real Speed 12 for sale at the moment?
The new car being built is a 'real' Speed12 Cerbera as it's being built from original parts, the engine however will be something a little more reliable (still British) to allow greater use so it will be seen out and about more often.
V8 GRF said:
SSpongey said:
Soovy said:
SSpongey said:
Don1 said:
Seriously, is it time to go back to school yet? Or is this now trolling?
Have a search of the forums - this is being built by one of us.
I can assure you, I am not "trolling" and I'm not a school child.Have a search of the forums - this is being built by one of us.
Thanks, I will look on the forums
Isn't there a real Speed 12 for sale at the moment?
The new car being built is a 'real' Speed12 Cerbera as it's being built from original parts, the engine however will be something a little more reliable (still British) to allow greater use so it will be seen out and about more often.
Interesting question this.
The normal speed 12 is worth a fortune. This speed 12 is going to be classed as a kit car, and therefore worth relatively little in comparison no matter how well the builder does his job or how 'original' the parts are supposed to be.
Two almost identical cars, one worth a fortune and one not, because of various bits of paper showing providence, and very little else.
Similarly I have an XKSS kit car in my profile, strangely allegedly built by Jaguar technicians, it has been to a couple of jaguar meets and no-one seems to be able to tell it from original, its probably quite confusing as its sitting on a very original looking suspension setup. One sold recently in the US for a quarter of a million I believe, but my kit is probably worth about 20K.
While I can understand what the builder of the speed twelve is trying to accomplish I think he's going to be quite dissapointed with the attitude toward kits in this country.
Soovy is right that this is going to be one very expensive kit if he throws large quantities of money at it and then expects to recoup it in the future on a sale price. I will venture that the XKSS in my profile has a higher percentage of original kit in it than this speed twelve will be able to lay claim to.
Its a shame really because the general attitude to kits in this country tends to set an artifical ceiling on how much money can sensibly be spent on making one.
The normal speed 12 is worth a fortune. This speed 12 is going to be classed as a kit car, and therefore worth relatively little in comparison no matter how well the builder does his job or how 'original' the parts are supposed to be.
Two almost identical cars, one worth a fortune and one not, because of various bits of paper showing providence, and very little else.
Similarly I have an XKSS kit car in my profile, strangely allegedly built by Jaguar technicians, it has been to a couple of jaguar meets and no-one seems to be able to tell it from original, its probably quite confusing as its sitting on a very original looking suspension setup. One sold recently in the US for a quarter of a million I believe, but my kit is probably worth about 20K.
While I can understand what the builder of the speed twelve is trying to accomplish I think he's going to be quite dissapointed with the attitude toward kits in this country.
Soovy is right that this is going to be one very expensive kit if he throws large quantities of money at it and then expects to recoup it in the future on a sale price. I will venture that the XKSS in my profile has a higher percentage of original kit in it than this speed twelve will be able to lay claim to.
Its a shame really because the general attitude to kits in this country tends to set an artifical ceiling on how much money can sensibly be spent on making one.
julian64 said:
I will venture that the XKSS in my profile has a higher percentage of original kit in it than this speed twelve will be able to lay claim to.
Therein lies the problem with a sp12 replica. For a car named after an engine for a copy to have a different engine, no matter how practical, will devalue it enormously even though it may be better to drive than the original. How would your XKSS stand with a four cyl K-series engine, again still British but with 2/3 the number of cyls just like the sp12 copy being built.Still for sale: http://www.legendsautomotive.co.uk/showroom/roadca...
Is the privately built SP12 a 'kit' car? I wouldn't call it such. Using original components means it's the real deal doesn't it. If someone gathered together all the components to build an E Type, said components coming from several broken up cars scattered about the place, and perhaps recreated some parts too in order to finish the job, the end result would still be an E Type and not a kit or replica. To take it a step further. If such an E Type were assembled and fitted with a SC engine from a recent model Jaguar, it would still be an E Type. All be it one with a non standard engine.
The SP12 offered for sale for a long time now is not truly representative of the value of any SP12 that might come to light. If it were it would have sold several times over and be in demand. It's a bit of a folly really and I rather suspect it's the price as well as its lack of usability to blame. If it were fifty thousand pounds I'm sure there would be quite a few interested parties who'd just own it for the pleasure of doing so, and be in a position to take it to shows. Shake it down at the odd track day. There are a few good uses it could be put to if it were priced realistically simply based on the affordability of it. That leads me to believe that the one being built privately has similar monetary value in my eyes. So to go by value the real deal and the privately built one in my opinion have similar value. One is way over priced and of little use, in part because of its price. The other will likely cover all the bases and be somewhat usable and gain in value because of it.
Lady
The SP12 offered for sale for a long time now is not truly representative of the value of any SP12 that might come to light. If it were it would have sold several times over and be in demand. It's a bit of a folly really and I rather suspect it's the price as well as its lack of usability to blame. If it were fifty thousand pounds I'm sure there would be quite a few interested parties who'd just own it for the pleasure of doing so, and be in a position to take it to shows. Shake it down at the odd track day. There are a few good uses it could be put to if it were priced realistically simply based on the affordability of it. That leads me to believe that the one being built privately has similar monetary value in my eyes. So to go by value the real deal and the privately built one in my opinion have similar value. One is way over priced and of little use, in part because of its price. The other will likely cover all the bases and be somewhat usable and gain in value because of it.
Lady
Edited by ladygooddriver on Wednesday 8th September 10:22
ladygooddriver said:
Is the privately built SP12 a 'kit' car? I wouldn't call it such. Using original components means it's the real deal doesn't it. If someone gathered together all the components to build an E Type, said components coming from several broken up cars scattered about the place, and perhaps recreated some parts too in order to finish the job, the end result would still be an E Type and not a kit or replica. To take it a step further. If such an E Type were assembled and fitted with a SC engine from a recent model Jaguar, it would still be an E Type. All be it one with a non standard engine.
Thing is, you can't just build a new E-Type. You'll have to re-build one to get the V5.If you did simply buy parts and build from scratch as a new vehicle it'd need an SVA/IVA and would be considered a kit and not built by Jaguar.
I don't drive VIN numbers.
In the case of the SP12 I'd wager the provenance is not of much importance to its value as there seems to be no takers at the 100k or 200k mark. That cars value is really in its usability and at the prices asked in recent years the car has laid dormant.
The one being privately built I suspect will not be dormant and as it will be the only one usable I suspect the TVR world will get more out of it than the TVR world does the real one mothballed.
In such circumstance a VIN number might be what a purist would seek, but then the SP12 chassis is a modified version of an already existing TVR chassis not hard to come by with VIN number - and modify accordingly. Such could be said to be of TVR origin.
Lady
In the case of the SP12 I'd wager the provenance is not of much importance to its value as there seems to be no takers at the 100k or 200k mark. That cars value is really in its usability and at the prices asked in recent years the car has laid dormant.
The one being privately built I suspect will not be dormant and as it will be the only one usable I suspect the TVR world will get more out of it than the TVR world does the real one mothballed.
In such circumstance a VIN number might be what a purist would seek, but then the SP12 chassis is a modified version of an already existing TVR chassis not hard to come by with VIN number - and modify accordingly. Such could be said to be of TVR origin.
Lady
JR said:
julian64 said:
I will venture that the XKSS in my profile has a higher percentage of original kit in it than this speed twelve will be able to lay claim to.
Therein lies the problem with a sp12 replica. For a car named after an engine for a copy to have a different engine, no matter how practical, will devalue it enormously even though it may be better to drive than the original. How would your XKSS stand with a four cyl K-series engine, again still British but with 2/3 the number of cyls just like the sp12 copy being built.The definition I was taught as a valuer of an items value is 'The amount a willing vendor will accept from a willing purchaser' as the Red Speed12 Cerbera (W112 BHG) has never sold at any of the high figures asked, it is fatuous to say that W112 is 'worth a fortune' because no one has ever been willing to stump up any cash, the fact it cost a lot of money to build doesn't mean it's 'worth' the money pumped into it, ask any 'kitcar builder'. It is still owned by the original owner who acquired it from TVR. (There may be an Ad for it but I think you'll find it's been withdrawn from sale)
The car was built from the road car tub and as such has no racing pedigree of any sort and was assembled from a collection of parts held by TVR. It does indeed run an original Speed 12 engine and the reason that the car is currently in Bristol Avenue is that the engine is being repaired after throwing it's water when it was started at Beaulieu event. Once repaired the car will return to Beaulieu on extended loan.
Does the fact it has a Speed 12 engine alone make it a TVR Speed 12 Cerbera? I don't necessarily think so and you can see the arguements raging all over these and other forums about whether cars with different engines to the ones that they came out of the factory with make them any less a TVR?
The 'new' Speed12 Cerbera being assembled at Bristol Avenue is no less a car as it too has been assembled from original parts (all from TVR) and indeed sports a correct TVR Speed 12 Cerbera VIN plate on its tub. This car will be running a V12 engine but however it will not be a Speed12. The use of a Speed 12 engine was investigated and I attended a meeting with the owner and TVR when the viability of using a Speed 12 was discussed. The outcome of that meeting was that the car if it was to be used in the way the owner wants then the Speed12 was not the way to go. So if TVR fans want to see a Speed 12 Cerbera out and about on the roads and at shows then they'll just have to accept that it's only 90% (assuming the engine is 10%) of the car is as TVR intended, it makes it no less an impressive piece of engineering just a more reliable one.
From having seen the meticulous assembly of this car by the people who built them in the first place I can assure the doubting thomases that this is no fake or 'kit car'.
ladygooddriver said:
Is the privately built SP12 a 'kit' car? I wouldn't call it such. Using original components means it's the real deal doesn't it. If someone gathered together all the components to build an E Type, said components coming from several broken up cars scattered about the place, and perhaps recreated some parts too in order to finish the job, the end result would still be an E Type and not a kit or replica. To take it a step further. If such an E Type were assembled and fitted with a SC engine from a recent model Jaguar, it would still be an E Type. All be it one with a non standard engine.
The SP12 offered for sale for a long time now is not truly representative of the value of any SP12 that might come to light. If it were it would have sold several times over and be in demand. It's a bit of a folly really and I rather suspect it's the price as well as its lack of usability to blame. If it were fifty thousand pounds I'm sure there would be quite a few interested parties who'd just own it for the pleasure of doing so, and be in a position to take it to shows. Shake it down at the odd track day. There are a few good uses it could be put to if it were priced realistically simply based on the affordability of it. That leads me to believe that the one being built privately has similar monetary value in my eyes. So to go by value the real deal and the privately built one in my opinion have similar value. One is way over priced and of little use, in part because of its price. The other will likely cover all the bases and be somewhat usable and gain in value because of it.
Lady
The SP12 offered for sale for a long time now is not truly representative of the value of any SP12 that might come to light. If it were it would have sold several times over and be in demand. It's a bit of a folly really and I rather suspect it's the price as well as its lack of usability to blame. If it were fifty thousand pounds I'm sure there would be quite a few interested parties who'd just own it for the pleasure of doing so, and be in a position to take it to shows. Shake it down at the odd track day. There are a few good uses it could be put to if it were priced realistically simply based on the affordability of it. That leads me to believe that the one being built privately has similar monetary value in my eyes. So to go by value the real deal and the privately built one in my opinion have similar value. One is way over priced and of little use, in part because of its price. The other will likely cover all the bases and be somewhat usable and gain in value because of it.
Lady
Edited by ladygooddriver on Wednesday 8th September 10:22
Please excuse the insult.
Provenance is all that matters re car values. It's why garages, owners and auction houses try to pin as much drivel as possible to an old banger when trying to pawn it off to some poor mug.
The reality is that this 'new' SP12 will have a good value but nowhere near the other SP12, which in turn would have a much greater value if it had been fully built by TVR and raced.
You are spot on that the 'original' SP12 is very much someone's pasion and folly and I suspect their valuation is way over the top for what is really a static museum piece with limited pedigree.
Valuations are pointless until someone buys either as build costs etc are irrelevant.
There are numerous examples of legal actions to prove or disprove provenance as it makes or breaks a car's investment value. The No1 Bently is a good example, and CUT 7 is a perfect example of why some Etypes are worth far more than others.
Etypes were also built in bulk so rising values at the top end will drag up the values of the dogs and replicas, but the SP12 is to all intents and purposes a one off meaning this effect doesn't hold.
This new one is tremendous and it is excellent that someone is investing the time and money to do it and to do it as best as possible by all accounts, but the end value is unlikely to reach the sum of its parts unless some serious provenance can be added, and the simplest way would be to take it racing for a few seasons and pay to have a brand name driver behind the wheel, like people used to pay Gerry Marshall to race their Astons etc.
DonkeyApple said:
Please excuse the insult.
Provenance is all that matters re car values. It's why garages, owners and auction houses try to pin as much drivel as possible to an old banger when trying to pawn it off to some poor mug.
< snip > , and the simplest way would be to take it racing for a few seasons and pay to have a brand name driver behind the wheel, like people used to pay Gerry Marshall to race their Astons etc.
Harsh with the insult there I think, she made some good points. Ok maybe the provenance issue was 'glossed over' but the points she makes about originality and use of parts is correct.Provenance is all that matters re car values. It's why garages, owners and auction houses try to pin as much drivel as possible to an old banger when trying to pawn it off to some poor mug.
< snip > , and the simplest way would be to take it racing for a few seasons and pay to have a brand name driver behind the wheel, like people used to pay Gerry Marshall to race their Astons etc.
The point you make latterly about 'adding value' is good but it's also something Kerry hasn't done with W112 so negates some of the other 'male posted' arguements that his car is 'worth a fortune'
Edited by V8 GRF on Wednesday 8th September 11:41
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