Adding 10% methanol to petrol tank?

[youngsyr]

There's a lot of talk about methanol and using it in a 1:10 (meth : petrol) ratio by adding it to the petrol tank at fill up time, but I wondered if anyone has actual experience or knowledge of testing this fuel in their car?

Specifically I'm interested in two issues:

1) the longevity of the fuel lines, fuel filter, fuel pump, fuel tank lining, valves and engine internals (noting that the fuel mixture will only be 10% methanol and specifically with relatively modern cars, say from the late 90s onwards).

2) separation of the methanol from the petrol when the car has been left standing resulting in a non-uniform fuel mixture.

From previous discussions I'm aware of the health risks relating to using methanol and performance advantages/disadvantages.

Can anyone add their experiences please?

This propoganda site also makes interesting (if obviously heavily biased) reading:

http://e85.whipnet.net/yellow/m85.2.html

[plg]

Can I be naïve, and ask why you might want to?

[Conian]

youngsyr said:

2) separation of the methanol from the petrol when the car has been left standing resulting in a non-uniform fuel mixture.

Would the methanol be lighter than petrol, and rise to the top of the tank when given time to settle, if so it'd mean the car would start up using pure petrol and within 1/4 mile of driving it'd be shaken (not shtirred) up again

Interested to hear some info on all this tho.

[MarJay]

A lot of UK Petrol is 5% methanol already. In the owners manual to my Impreza it stated quite clearly that anything more than 5% methanol would damage the vehicle beyond economical repair.

In short, if you add methanol to your tank you'll have no clue what percentage you've got and therefore be sitting on a metaphorical timebomb. Also methanol is very toxic and can cause you to go blind.

[sc4589]

plg said:

Can I be naïve, and ask why you might want to?

Off topic, but digging your 'naïve'.

[youngsyr]

MarJay said:

A lot of UK Petrol is 5% methanol already. In the owners manual to my Impreza it stated quite clearly that anything more than 5% methanol would damage the vehicle beyond economical repair.

In short, if you add methanol to your tank you'll have no clue what percentage you've got and therefore be sitting on a metaphorical timebomb. Also methanol is very toxic and can cause you to go blind.

That's not quite right - a lot of UK petrol is blended with bio-ethanol to a ratio of 1:20 (bio-ethanol : petrol, which is similar to, but very slightly different from methanol.

How would I not know the percentage of methanol in the tank? If I start with an empty tank (or a known quantity in there, some owner's manuals specify at what level of fuel the empty light comes on) and always add petrol and methanol in a 1:10 ratio, then I will always have 10% methanol?

Re the health risks, I'm aware of these as stated in the first post. Petrol is also toxic by the way and has a lower maximum safe inhalation amount than methanol per US health standards (see link in OP).

[youngsyr]

plg said:

Can I be naïve, and ask why you might want to?

Methanol has better knock suppression (around 114 RON, I believe) than petrol and burns at a lower temperature. This is very advantageous in forced induction engines where the incoming air is hotter than it might be in an naturally induction engine (compressing air heats it up).

Hotter fuel charges ignite more easily, leading to an increased chance pre-detonation (knock). Knock kills engines very quickly.

Hotter cylinder temperatures kill exhaust valves.

The downside to using methanol is that it has a lower calorific value than gasoline, so you really need to run forced induction and the correct ignition timing (often advanced from what it would be if running gasoline) to gain power by using methanol as part of the fuel.

[plg]

youngsyr said:

Handy explanation

Thanks. Good luck... Is this for your Evo?

[youngsyr]

plg said:

youngsyr said:

Handy explanation

Thanks. Good luck... Is this for your Evo?

No problem, it's not for the Evo although Evo owners have had very good results with running a 10% meth fuel. The 4G63T block produces a lot of power (it was famously the first production engine to make 200 bhp per litre), but is very old technology and relies heavily on forced induction, so benefits greatly from using higher octane fuels.

[The real Apache]

Could you not use a higher octane rating?

I used to run an old Kawasaki 400 on Avgas and it went like st off a shovel

[youngsyr]

The real Apache said:

Could you not use a higher octane rating?

I used to run an old Kawasaki 400 on Avgas and it went like st off a shovel

I would imagine it's more than possible to run the various types of Avgas, but as I understand it adding methanol will make the charge burn cooler and methanol is readily available and relatively cheap.

What I haven't mentioned previously (as I didn't think it was necessarily relevant) is that this fuel mixture may well be injected into the inlet manifold (as well as via the normal injectors) to cool the charge prior to it entering the engine. My understanding is that methanol is has better evaporative cooling properties than even high octane gasoline.

[The real Apache]

youngsyr said:

The real Apache said:

Could you not use a higher octane rating?

I used to run an old Kawasaki 400 on Avgas and it went like st off a shovel

I would imagine it's more than possible to run the various types of Avgas, but as I understand it adding methanol will make the charge burn cooler and methanol is readily available and relatively cheap.

What I haven't mentioned previously (as I didn't think it was necessarily relevant) is that this fuel mixture may well be injected into the inlet manifold (as well as via the normal injectors) to cool the charge prior to it entering the engine. My understanding is that methanol is has better evaporative cooling properties than even high octane gasoline.

interesting, I must admit it did seem to run hotter as the tailpipe was a lovely pale grey colour

[Balmoral Green]

Depending upon what sort of still you have, you can also make methanol/ethanol at home very easily and cheaply.

[Lloyd.scooby]

Any update or further information on this subject? I’ll be having my jdm sti mapped on the first of February and I’m planning to include 16 percent(10 litre per tank) of methonal.

Touch wood it’s all smooth saling and I achieve decent power and lower charge temps.