human scrappage scheme

[tonym911]

Wondering how we might kickstart the economy the other day. The boffins say it's got to be business-led, ie the banks have got to start lending money to businesses etc. Whether that will ever happen is a moot point to say the least but, for the sake of argument, let's forget the banks for a minute and ask how could it be made easier for businesses to grow?

Sort of reflecting the car scrappage scheme, how about encouraging businesses to employ new people (and simultaneously encouraging people to get off benefits) by taking those new employees completely out of the tax system for their first year of employment?

Employers could pay slightly under the odds for that first year, reducing their overheads, in the knowledge that employees are able to tolerate lower gross wages when there are no stoppages.

After a year, assuming employee is working out OK, they switch onto the normal PAYE system with an appropriate wage rise to cushion/nullify the impact.

Company grows, people come out of the benefits system. All a bit simplistic I know, doubtless better minds than mine can pick holes in it.

[Tsippy]

They could do with reducing business rates so that companies can start up easier too, that alone would create more employment and encourage companies to setup in the UK.

Doubt it'll happen though.

[Sheets Tabuer]

Wouldn't you just get companies using cheap labour for a year then firing them and getting new blood in the next year?

[Spiritual_Beggar]

Do we get to crush up the old, inefficient, high maintenance humans that are no longer needed?

Would businesses get cashback for each human scrapped?

How do we dispose of the bodies; Landfill or furnace? Or, could we look to recycle (organs, limbs, etc)?

[Tsippy]

Spiritual_Beggar said:

How do we dispose of the bodies; Landfill or furnace? Or, could we look to recycle (organs, limbs, etc)?

Is it Sweden where they were using rabbits as a "clean energy source" (ie thrown into a furnace ). Maybe we could export our chavs and criminals over there

[Spiritual_Beggar]

Tsippy said:

Spiritual_Beggar said:

How do we dispose of the bodies; Landfill or furnace? Or, could we look to recycle (organs, limbs, etc)?

Is it Sweden where they were using rabbits as a "clean energy source" (ie thrown into a furnace ). Maybe we could export our chavs and criminals over there

I believe it was Sweden, but they had to abandon the scheme as it made everyone hopping mad!

[tonym911]

Sheets Tabuer said:

Wouldn't you just get companies using cheap labour for a year then firing them and getting new blood in the next year?

That might happen, especially in the first year or two of the scheme, but then if the employees are any good and contributing to the growth of the business, why get rid of 'em?

[Sheets Tabuer]

tonym911 said:

That might happen, especially in the first year or two of the scheme, but then if the employees are any good and contributing to the growth of the business, why get rid of 'em?

I worked for a company that did something similar, they'd hire graduates on a low wage with a promise of a higher one a year later, they'd make them redundant and change the job description slightly and hire the next set of new graduates.

[tonym911]

Sheets Tabuer said:

tonym911 said:

That might happen, especially in the first year or two of the scheme, but then if the employees are any good and contributing to the growth of the business, why get rid of 'em?

I worked for a company that did something similar, they'd hire graduates on a low wage with a promise of a higher one a year later, they'd make them redundant and change the job description slightly and hire the next set of new graduates.

yep I'm thinking it would have to be pretty watertight this scheme but as it's coming from Govt rather than an individual company's dodgy wheeze, maybe it could be made to happen

[tankplanker]

There was something similar with the apprenticeship vacancies online scheme, full time employee for £95 + free training. It balances the employer employing a cheap apprentice for one year then replacing at the end of the term with vocational based training so the employee would be more valuable both to the existing employer and other potential employers.

[tonym911]

tankplanker said:

There was something similar with the apprenticeship vacancies online scheme, full time employee for £95 + free training. It balances the employer employing a cheap apprentice for one year then replacing at the end of the term with vocational based training so the employee would be more valuable both to the existing employer and other potential employers.

Interesting, but still sounds complicated. The scheme I'm proposing would be thicko-friendly: no stoppages for a year. That's it. You could even pay 'em in cash, in brown envelopes with holes in, for that full retro vibe.

[Digga]

tonym911 said:

Sheets Tabuer said:

tonym911 said:

That might happen, especially in the first year or two of the scheme, but then if the employees are any good and contributing to the growth of the business, why get rid of 'em?

I worked for a company that did something similar, they'd hire graduates on a low wage with a promise of a higher one a year later, they'd make them redundant and change the job description slightly and hire the next set of new graduates.

yep I'm thinking it would have to be pretty watertight this scheme but as it's coming from Govt rather than an individual company's dodgy wheeze, maybe it could be made to happen

In the longer term, the 'loopholes' would matter less. What is urgently needed is a shot in the arm for the economy, especially SMEs.

QE clearly has had no effect (other than boosting the FTSE for a short while) and lending to business is dire. The govt's business loan guarantee smokescreen is clearly useless - see how few loans have been agreed - which is unsurprisiing, giving the idiotic requirements and punative interest rates, but this sort of scheme could get things shifting and put some cash into the economy.

[rpguk]

It's not too dissimilar to the £1000 bung that was being given out until recently to companies who took someone on from the job centre.

[tankplanker]

At £95 a week you wouldn't pay any tax and its pretty simple as an employer to participate, just register your company and then your vacancy here: http://www.apprenticeships.org.uk/Employers.aspx. They do all the hard work including finding the candidates and the training provider.

Edited by tankplanker on Thursday 8th July 15:04

[tonym911]

But what about forgetting all the schemes and just taking them out of the tax system for a year? Simple as that.
Or is it too simple?

[NoelWatson]

tonym911 said:

Wondering how we might kickstart the economy the other day. The boffins say it's got to be business-led, ie the banks have got to start lending money to businesses etc. Whether that will ever happen is a moot point to say the least but, for the sake of argument, let's forget the banks for a minute and ask how could it be made easier for businesses to grow?

Sort of reflecting the car scrappage scheme, how about encouraging businesses to employ new people (and simultaneously encouraging people to get off benefits) by taking those new employees completely out of the tax system for their first year of employment?

Employers could pay slightly under the odds for that first year, reducing their overheads, in the knowledge that employees are able to tolerate lower gross wages when there are no stoppages.

After a year, assuming employee is working out OK, they switch onto the normal PAYE system with an appropriate wage rise to cushion/nullify the impact.

Company grows, people come out of the benefits system. All a bit simplistic I know, doubtless better minds than mine can pick holes in it.

http://www.duport.co.uk/news-centre/2010/june/20100606-NI-breaks-for-first-10-employees.php

[dilbert]

It amazes me how dumb business seems to be. What with agencies, and the whole movement to outsource human resources, achieving growth is going to be tremendously hard.

It didn't seem to be like this perhaps just 15 years ago. I could go on for hours about why this has happened, but it's not important.

The trouble is that the big dumb businesses, have the monopoly of power and competitive control. Being dumb they can act to crush the smart little guy, but they can't be competitive on a global scale without him. Perhaps they're using all their brains to be anti competitive, but it's always going to be a losing battle.

I say prick the bubble. Provide schemes that allow smart people to connect, build and grow dynamic small businesses. These can grow from nothing, and put fresh competitive ideas onto the world stage. Government should be aiming to break the deadlock. Making it easy for the little guy to do well. By that means we'll end up with smart people at the top of the tree again. There's no question that it's going to take a while.

Such things now have to go beyond the internet. I'm not talking about a revival of the dot com boom. I'm taking about businesses that do all of the traditional things like manufacturing and industry, but where the internet is a seamless part. Not the next lastminute.com. Much more, a new era, of design your own eco-friendly car on the internet. Have it delivered next week. Design your own home, perhaps. Even these ideas are but poor examples.

Another way to look at this would be as a complete change to working practices. What would it be like if 90% of the workforce worked from home, using modern technology. No more office blocks, politics, mindless commuting. Just efficient happy people.

Listening to the address from the PM, it's fairly likely that this will be their aim anyhow. They, by the sounds, are aiming to return power to the little guy. I see this as being a good thing. If the attitude an ethos are also applied outside of government, I can only see vibrant and diverse times ahead.

Edited by dilbert on Thursday 8th July 15:06

[tonym911]

How about this: taking new employees out of the tax system for a year?

[dilbert]

tonym911 said:

How about this: taking new employees out of the tax system for a year?

How about this....

If an employer decides to fire someone, that's their business, and it isn't subject to any kind of redundancy pay. Abolish the employment tribunal.

The problem is that you can't tell if an employee is any good, by a piece of paper, by interviewing them, or by their references. People do have instinct, but if you make the penalty of employment so great for an employer, that they fear recruitment mistakes, then the pressure is too great.

They make more mistakes, and sadly they cannot be undone.

The only way to learn is to make mistakes. We need to learn, and fast. The only way to do that, is to reduce the fear of making mistakes.

Call it "flexible workforce".

Edited by dilbert on Thursday 8th July 15:17

[tonym911]

So, let's take new employees out of the tax system for a year. Obviously the scheme would be subject to the normal employment terms in other respects (probationary period etc) and would in any case come with the option of mutual termination after the year is up.