Data Logging on Track Days

[RegMolehusband]

I'm keen to try a data logger and notice there's a Race Technology DL1 on sale on Ebay for a reasonable price.

Does anybody have any experience of using these?

Edited to get the product name right.

Edited by RegMolehusband on Monday 17th May 13:54

[fiveoclockhero1]

It possibly wont be a reasonable price now you've provided a link to it for the PH masses!!!!

[RegMolehusband]

Are they that widely used on track days then? I would have thought they came into their own in club motor sport.

[juansolo]

As long as they're not used for lap timing then I don't see why not. We have done two settings for our logger/dash for this reason. One with on-dash timing and a trackday one without. Can't exactly turn the thing off as it's logging whenever it's turned on and you get no dash without it.

[FasterFreddy]

If you can get it for a good price and it works 100% (difficult to know until you actually use it for the first time) then it's very useful for developing your track driving skills, once you've got to grips understanding how to interpret the data.

I would ask how old it is, because there have been firmware and hardware revisions on that particular model over the years which could give you problems if you wanted the latest features or to upgrade the software later.

Also, the DL1 is made by Race Technology, not Racelogic.

[fergus]

If you only want *logged* (not live) lap timing, try the (free) racechrono package on your phone, which when connected to a 5Hz bluetooth GPS receiver makes a handy logger (constructs track maps, etc).

PS it *can* display a live/best/theoretical best time if you want, but that would be very naughty....

PPS if you get one of the cheaper dataloggers, may sure you align it correctly as some of the internal accelerometers are very sensitive to the plane in which they are mounted in the vehicle...

[tertius]

Can someone explain the situation with data logging on track days?

Every track day I've been on, the briefing has said (words to the effect of) "no timing of any sort", what is data logging if not timing?

(And as an aside I have a similar question about video'ing, though at least that is explicitly covered in the briefing and the basis for its use explained.)

[FasterFreddy]

tertius said:

Can someone explain the situation with data logging on track days?

Every track day I've been on, the briefing has said (words to the effect of) "no timing of any sort", what is data logging if not timing?

(And as an aside I have a similar question about video'ing, though at least that is explicitly covered in the briefing and the basis for its use explained.)

It's generally accepted by all the major TDOs that data logging is OK on trackdays as long as you don't have a laptimer display in your car while you are driving.

It could be argued that if you come into the pits, download your data and then look at the laptimes you are 'timing', but you have to somehow select your 'best' lap from a session and so looking at laptimes in the pits is inevitable. Again, most of the good TDOs understand this and realise that as long as you are using logging to improve your driving and not just to try and get the fastest laptime, that's OK.

You could log and analyse data with a logger such as the DL1 and never look at lap times if you wanted to, but it would make things more difficult and I really don't think viewing your laptimes 5 or 10 minutes after you've come off track is going to upset anyone.

HTH!

ETA - re comment from Fergus: Yes, there are now quite a few useful smartphone/PDA type apps which can work quite well for laptiming and very basic logging, but if you want to analyse what's going on with the car with any degree of accuracy and consistency, you will need to use a dedicated data logger and spend a couple of hundred quid at least. The dedicated devices use higher end GPS engines and accelerometers and the analysis software is much more developed to 'tune' and filter out bad data.

Edited by FasterFreddy on Monday 17th May 13:49

[fergus]

FasterFreddy said:

ETA - re comment from Fergus: Yes, there are now quite a few useful smartphone/PDA type apps which can work quite well for laptiming and very basic logging, but if you want to analyse what's going on with the car with any degree of accuracy and consistency, you will need to use a dedicated data logger and spend a couple of hundred quid at least. The dedicated devices use higher end GPS engines and accelerometers and the analysis software is much more developed to 'tune' and filter out bad data.

Agreed. I've got an AIM MXL dash in the car, which logs multiple channels and allows me to create custom channels via the maths functions.

However, on the bike, I simply tape the GPS receiver to the tank, and away we go!

PS there aren't many non professional GPS systems which log at >10Hz.

PPS the AIM smarty cam is probably the easiest product on the market offering video with basic logging, and at £700 is good value (a lot cheaper than VideoBox). The Aim cam can also be linked to your ECU via the CAN bus, if you want to log extra channels.

[andye30m3]

A guy I was sprinting against at the weekend uses one and was showing me it, quite impressed and could be tempted to get one myself at somepoint.

Is it still on ebay? I can't find it.

[RegMolehusband]

It's off Ebay at the moment but I contacted the seller and it's going back late this evening.

[phatgixer]

My passengers often 'log'

[fergus]

phatgixer said:

My passengers often 'log'

quite literally bored s*** - less, so to speak? ....thinking, if only we were going at a rate of knots to challenge the tyres

PS you coming out on track on that technicolour dream bike of yours anytime soon? Would be good to catch up.

[tertius]

FasterFreddy said:

tertius said:

Can someone explain the situation with data logging on track days?

Every track day I've been on, the briefing has said (words to the effect of) "no timing of any sort", what is data logging if not timing?

(And as an aside I have a similar question about video'ing, though at least that is explicitly covered in the briefing and the basis for its use explained.)

It's generally accepted by all the major TDOs that data logging is OK on trackdays as long as you don't have a laptimer display in your car while you are driving.

It could be argued that if you come into the pits, download your data and then look at the laptimes you are 'timing', but you have to somehow select your 'best' lap from a session and so looking at laptimes in the pits is inevitable. Again, most of the good TDOs understand this and realise that as long as you are using logging to improve your driving and not just to try and get the fastest laptime, that's OK.

You could log and analyse data with a logger such as the DL1 and never look at lap times if you wanted to, but it would make things more difficult and I really don't think viewing your laptimes 5 or 10 minutes after you've come off track is going to upset anyone.

HTH!

It just seems like such a fine distinction to me that I'm very surprised that its permitted. How is what you describe different from someone timing from the pitwall and telling the driver later? Which seems to be consistently forbidden.

Guess I'd like to hear the position from a TDO here, or I'll just ask on the next day I do.

[DanH]

tertius said:

FasterFreddy said:

tertius said:

Can someone explain the situation with data logging on track days?

Every track day I've been on, the briefing has said (words to the effect of) "no timing of any sort", what is data logging if not timing?

(And as an aside I have a similar question about video'ing, though at least that is explicitly covered in the briefing and the basis for its use explained.)

It's generally accepted by all the major TDOs that data logging is OK on trackdays as long as you don't have a laptimer display in your car while you are driving.

It could be argued that if you come into the pits, download your data and then look at the laptimes you are 'timing', but you have to somehow select your 'best' lap from a session and so looking at laptimes in the pits is inevitable. Again, most of the good TDOs understand this and realise that as long as you are using logging to improve your driving and not just to try and get the fastest laptime, that's OK.

You could log and analyse data with a logger such as the DL1 and never look at lap times if you wanted to, but it would make things more difficult and I really don't think viewing your laptimes 5 or 10 minutes after you've come off track is going to upset anyone.

HTH!

It just seems like such a fine distinction to me that I'm very surprised that its permitted. How is what you describe different from someone timing from the pitwall and telling the driver later? Which seems to be consistently forbidden.

Guess I'd like to hear the position from a TDO here, or I'll just ask on the next day I do.

Ok... how is it different to someone filming and making notes of laptimes after the event?

[FasterFreddy]

tertius said:

It just seems like such a fine distinction to me that I'm very surprised that its permitted. How is what you describe different from someone timing from the pitwall and telling the driver later? Which seems to be consistently forbidden.

Because data logging isn't just about lap times. You can spend hours looking at g-forces, speed traces, brake & steering inputs without ever even looking at lap times.

Someone timing on the pitwall can only measure one thing - a lap time. A data logger in the car can gather all sorts of information. In fact, on a track day, it is often very difficult to get a clear lap, so the lap times are often misleading and irrelevant.

Data logging allows you to look at trends over several laps or compare two drivers in the same car, and objectively measure the differences through certain corners or sectors, for instance.

Don't confuse lap timing with data logging. They are very different and it's the timing aspect which is not welcome or useful on track days.

[tertius]

DanH said:

tertius said:

FasterFreddy said:

tertius said:

Can someone explain the situation with data logging on track days?

Every track day I've been on, the briefing has said (words to the effect of) "no timing of any sort", what is data logging if not timing?

(And as an aside I have a similar question about video'ing, though at least that is explicitly covered in the briefing and the basis for its use explained.)

It's generally accepted by all the major TDOs that data logging is OK on trackdays as long as you don't have a laptimer display in your car while you are driving.

It could be argued that if you come into the pits, download your data and then look at the laptimes you are 'timing', but you have to somehow select your 'best' lap from a session and so looking at laptimes in the pits is inevitable. Again, most of the good TDOs understand this and realise that as long as you are using logging to improve your driving and not just to try and get the fastest laptime, that's OK.

You could log and analyse data with a logger such as the DL1 and never look at lap times if you wanted to, but it would make things more difficult and I really don't think viewing your laptimes 5 or 10 minutes after you've come off track is going to upset anyone.

HTH!

It just seems like such a fine distinction to me that I'm very surprised that its permitted. How is what you describe different from someone timing from the pitwall and telling the driver later? Which seems to be consistently forbidden.

Guess I'd like to hear the position from a TDO here, or I'll just ask on the next day I do.

Ok... how is it different to someone filming and making notes of laptimes after the event?

Well its no different, hence my comment about video'ing in my first post. I would have thought that if timing were really not allowed then that would also exclude taking video.

[tertius]

FasterFreddy said:

tertius said:

It just seems like such a fine distinction to me that I'm very surprised that its permitted. How is what you describe different from someone timing from the pitwall and telling the driver later? Which seems to be consistently forbidden.

Because data logging isn't just about lap times. You can spend hours looking at g-forces, speed traces, brake & steering inputs without ever even looking at lap times.

Someone timing on the pitwall can only measure one thing - a lap time. A data logger in the car can gather all sorts of information. In fact, on a track day, it is often very difficult to get a clear lap, so the lap times are often misleading and irrelevant.

Data logging allows you to look at trends over several laps or compare two drivers in the same car, and objectively measure the differences through certain corners or sectors, for instance.

Don't confuse lap timing with data logging. They are very different and it's the timing aspect which is not welcome or useful on track days.

Hmm but again you are making quite a fine distinction are you not? Yes I agree data logging can be about more than just lap timing, but it certainly does give laptimes, therefore, its timing, isn't it?

[FasterFreddy]

tertius said:

Hmm but again you are making quite a fine distinction are you not? Yes I agree data logging can be about more than just lap timing, but it certainly does give laptimes, therefore, its timing, isn't it?

You're missing the point, which is that TDOs don't want any competitive elements creeping into their trackdays and their insurance will specifically prohibit timing, time trials and anything else with time in the sentence.

Therefore, anything used specifically to provide lap times will not be welcome.

If you are seen with a stopwatch and piece of paper with times written down, you will get a talking to. If you are seen with laptop looking at graphs of your longitudinal g-force trace, you won't.

Some cars now have their own data logging, stopwatches and lap timers built in. Does that mean they are not allowed out on a track day? They could give the driver a laptime if they pressed a few buttons in the right order, but as long as they don't, it isn't a problem.

[tertius]

FasterFreddy said:

tertius said:

Hmm but again you are making quite a fine distinction are you not? Yes I agree data logging can be about more than just lap timing, but it certainly does give laptimes, therefore, its timing, isn't it?

You're missing the point, which is that TDOs don't want any competitive elements creeping into their trackdays and their insurance will specifically prohibit timing, time trials and anything else with time in the sentence.

Therefore, anything used specifically to provide lap times will not be welcome.

If you are seen with a stopwatch and piece of paper with times written down, you will get a talking to. If you are seen with laptop looking at graphs of your longitudinal g-force trace, you won't.

Some cars now have their own data logging, stopwatches and lap timers built in. Does that mean they are not allowed out on a track day? They could give the driver a laptime if they pressed a few buttons in the right order, but as long as they don't, it isn't a problem.

And seen with a laptop looking at graphs of your longitudinal G force trace, with the lap times shown as part of the display?

I agree your last about cars with built in capabilities is a bit of a conundrum isn't it?

I should stress I'm certainly not arguing that it shouldn't be allowed, merely trying to understand whether it is permitted or not; and if it is why some forms of timing are acceptable whilst others are not.

It just seems to me if you are going to allow timing, in whatever indirect form, then you may as well allow all forms. Or at least be a bit clearer about what is and is not allowed. Whilst I've heard "timing" mentioned many times on TD briefings and video the same, I never hear any mention of data logging.