Buildings Survey on a flat?
Discussion
I've never bought a flat, and a friend is now in the process of getting one. But I don't see how a structural Survey can be wort paying for - the buildings insurance is part of the rent bit and it's still under NHBC. Plus it's a first floor flat, so if there was a leak on the ground the ground floor flat would spot it first, and if it has a leak in the roof, the flat above would spot it first?
So, I can't see the benefit of a full structural - am I missing something obvious?
So, I can't see the benefit of a full structural - am I missing something obvious?
We call them building surveys these days. Whilst you may be buying a flat that's the filling in a sandwich, you are also buying the rest of the sandwich.
Flats have common parts, and common structure. Leases have provisions built in for the allocation of costs associated with repairs and maintenance.
A building survey looks at those things and advises on the broader picture. They are not for telling a buyer that a kitchen drawer is sticking, but there are issues that a survey will pick up that aren't necessarily obvious.
A survey really isn't very much money when you are spending that much on a property and are good value, but I would say that wouldn't I.
Flats have common parts, and common structure. Leases have provisions built in for the allocation of costs associated with repairs and maintenance.
A building survey looks at those things and advises on the broader picture. They are not for telling a buyer that a kitchen drawer is sticking, but there are issues that a survey will pick up that aren't necessarily obvious.
A survey really isn't very much money when you are spending that much on a property and are good value, but I would say that wouldn't I.
Depends on the access a surveyor can get with a flat....definitely need to make sure the surveyor can get access to all external parts of the building. They are largely superficial though in my opinion....I think a good builder or architect can probably see most things a surveyor can.
I bought a large flat in a Victorian conversion...clean bill of health from the surveyor. We did a very extensive refurb, back to bare brick and joists in several places. We found dry rot, rotten joists and asbestos whilst doing the refurb. None of which would have come up on any normal survey as they don't go around lifting carpets/floor boards etc but all of which are huge and costly issues to deal with and also in a period property probably relatively common.
I bought a large flat in a Victorian conversion...clean bill of health from the surveyor. We did a very extensive refurb, back to bare brick and joists in several places. We found dry rot, rotten joists and asbestos whilst doing the refurb. None of which would have come up on any normal survey as they don't go around lifting carpets/floor boards etc but all of which are huge and costly issues to deal with and also in a period property probably relatively common.
Jasandjules said:
Am I wrong in thinking that any serious building defects would be the responsibility of the Building Management People....... And that there is no need to get buildings insurance?
There would normally be an annual service charge to cover buildings insurance and also general maintenance. Depends on the individual building, some have a residents association where a not for profit company is set up to cover this, others have a maintenance company set up by the developer which can be a nice ongoing profit center for the developer! Some service charges will be slightly higher and incorporate an element for major works put aside in a sinking fund....others just cover cutting the grass, cleaning common parts etc. Your mates solicitor should check this as standard practice but the Estate Agent should be able to find out all necessary information.
Beardy10 said:
Depends on the access a surveyor can get with a flat....definitely need to make sure the surveyor can get access to all external parts of the building. They are largely superficial though in my opinion....I think a good builder or architect can probably see most things a surveyor can.
I think that rubbish, and poor advice. Why would you have an Architect doing something that they are probablly not qualified or insured for? Builders tend to look at things from a different perspective as well.Beardy10 said:
I bought a large flat in a Victorian conversion...clean bill of health from the surveyor. We did a very extensive refurb, back to bare brick and joists in several places. We found dry rot, rotten joists and asbestos whilst doing the refurb. None of which would have come up on any normal survey as they don't go around lifting carpets/floor boards etc but all of which are huge and costly issues to deal with and also in a period property probably relatively common.
And no doubt you persued the surveyor involved, or was it just a valuation that you relied on. To cite your example above you think an architect or builder would have seen those things?Buying a flat can in many ways be more complex than buying a house, depends on lots of factors of course. Ideally a surveyor would get access to all parts of the building internally, but that doesn't happen very often, but access to all other parts if, of course, essential.
silverthorn2151 said:
And no doubt you persued the surveyor involved, or was it just a valuation that you relied on. To cite your example above you think an architect or builder would have seen those things
I did. Of course the answer is that because they were unable to lift carpets or floorboards how on earth are they supposed to identify these issues ? It was a full structural survey. Caveat emptor..... I don't think a builder or architect would have seen those either but if they are looking at a property before you buy it they are worth consulting, and the advice is generally free. The problem is because of access issues a surveyor can rarely give you the full picture which is a major flaw in my mind, obviously it is not in a vendors interest to allow the level of access needed.
Get a good legal bod to read and explain the lease, you need to be 100% sure of what you are actually buying and what you will be expected to pay for, don't assume anything some leases can be none standard. The lease on the maisonette I currently live in gives the ground floor flat responsibility for the ground at the front and the upstairs flat the responsibility for the roof. Also it is a little daft but look at how long is left on the lease and if it is extendable now, a 100+ year lease will be more saleable than a sub 90,
So what sort of figure should we be looking at for a full structural survey on a flat?
And you are saying that even if she pays the management company that it could be the case that building repairs fall to her? So that means that she will need buildings insurance as well as contents insurance? Is that the case even if there is 5 years worth of NHBC left?
Sorry for all the questions, I've never bought a flat so have no idea!
And you are saying that even if she pays the management company that it could be the case that building repairs fall to her? So that means that she will need buildings insurance as well as contents insurance? Is that the case even if there is 5 years worth of NHBC left?
Sorry for all the questions, I've never bought a flat so have no idea!
It depends on the cost of the flat. As it's a nearly new property there is a standardised reporting format which would be appropriate called the homebuyers report. A local firm of chartered surveyors would be able to give you a quote.
Advice up here ^^^^^^^ about getting the right legal summary of the lease is very important. If your chum is unclear about anything, have the solicitor spell it out. The management company exists just to do that, manage the block. These are set up in lots of different ways. I have recently been dealing with residents management companies on some mansion blocks where that management company instructs me to advise on repairs and maintenance and then procure and manage those works. The individual leaseholders then pay for those works.
For example, a block of 4 flats might include leases where each lessee pays 25% of the costs through a service charge. Basically, anything that gets spent in common gets split 4 ways. That would include cleaning the common parts and electricity for the lighting on the staircase. That sort of thing would normally be dealt with as a regular service charge. Were specific works required, perhaps painting those common parts, the additional costs would be shared.
If there is a management company employed their fees would need to be paid from the service charge. Often that management company will be formed of the residents. That can work, but can be a pain in the neck!
There are a whole heap of procedures in place in the event that additional expenditure is required. Expense above a certain threshold requires consultation with residents. Normally a budget for the year will be set which takes any required repairs into account.
In terms of insurance, the lease will set out what happens, but normally insurance of the structure would be arranged via the service charge with the premium recovered from residents (or lessees).
As ever, individual situations can be different which is why you need a commentary from the solicitor.
I wouldn't rely on the NHBC guarentee for anything. It's coverage is actually quite limited.
Turning to the survey points, of course it's difficult when carpets are fitted and there is heavy furniture all over the place. However, the problems you describe are typically caused by some defect which should be manifest, not always though. If a vendor was seeking to restrict my access when carrying out a survey, I'd have to ask myself why?
I'm not seeking to defend surveys and surveyors carte blanch, god knows I see some appaling survey reports prepared by idiots, but on balance joe public is better off with a survey than without.
Advice up here ^^^^^^^ about getting the right legal summary of the lease is very important. If your chum is unclear about anything, have the solicitor spell it out. The management company exists just to do that, manage the block. These are set up in lots of different ways. I have recently been dealing with residents management companies on some mansion blocks where that management company instructs me to advise on repairs and maintenance and then procure and manage those works. The individual leaseholders then pay for those works.
For example, a block of 4 flats might include leases where each lessee pays 25% of the costs through a service charge. Basically, anything that gets spent in common gets split 4 ways. That would include cleaning the common parts and electricity for the lighting on the staircase. That sort of thing would normally be dealt with as a regular service charge. Were specific works required, perhaps painting those common parts, the additional costs would be shared.
If there is a management company employed their fees would need to be paid from the service charge. Often that management company will be formed of the residents. That can work, but can be a pain in the neck!
There are a whole heap of procedures in place in the event that additional expenditure is required. Expense above a certain threshold requires consultation with residents. Normally a budget for the year will be set which takes any required repairs into account.
In terms of insurance, the lease will set out what happens, but normally insurance of the structure would be arranged via the service charge with the premium recovered from residents (or lessees).
As ever, individual situations can be different which is why you need a commentary from the solicitor.
I wouldn't rely on the NHBC guarentee for anything. It's coverage is actually quite limited.
Turning to the survey points, of course it's difficult when carpets are fitted and there is heavy furniture all over the place. However, the problems you describe are typically caused by some defect which should be manifest, not always though. If a vendor was seeking to restrict my access when carrying out a survey, I'd have to ask myself why?
I'm not seeking to defend surveys and surveyors carte blanch, god knows I see some appaling survey reports prepared by idiots, but on balance joe public is better off with a survey than without.
Jasandjules said:
The flat is a vacant possession so there should be no great problem with taking a look around.
Thank you for the advice, I'll get her to call the conveyencer to check the details of the lease etc.
One of the things to ask for, and make sure you get, is a summary of the service charge for the last 5 years. that will identify how much each lessee has been paying for maintenance and so on, but will also identify is there are works that haven't been done. For instance, if the place is 5 years old, the external previously decorated surfaces should have been redecorated. That should show as a cost somewhere. If not, then they may need doing and that will be a bill that's forthcoming. Similarly make sure you get information relating to planned expenditure for the coming year. That will depend on when the service charge years runs from.Thank you for the advice, I'll get her to call the conveyencer to check the details of the lease etc.
That is also a very good idea. Thank you, I'll pass that on.
I presume it is also very important to ascertain if the building management company have buildings insurance and if so what that covers and what might remain that she might be liable for - unless I've misunderstood the above.
I presume it is also very important to ascertain if the building management company have buildings insurance and if so what that covers and what might remain that she might be liable for - unless I've misunderstood the above.
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