Will juddery brakes cure themselves? (Focus ST)
Discussion
After 1,500 miles of normal driving on standard discs and pads I started to get a lot of juddering through the steering wheel, I put up with it for 28,000 miles before finally replacing them. I have now got standard discs with DS2500 pads, now after roughly 1,500 miles I am now getting really bad brake judder through the steering wheel.
I haven't been driving fast, they have never faded and I don't leave my foot on the footbrake when at a standstill. As you can imagine this is really annoying as it's the only dynamic problem with the car and I don't believe I'm driving fast enough to cause it.
Perhaps its worth swapping the pads from side to side in an attempt to "re-bed" them in? Maybe if I can get the DS2500 pads hot, they'll attack the discs and clean off the uneven layer? The judder does seem to go away if I brake hard, but when the pads get warm the problem gets worse.
I haven't been driving fast, they have never faded and I don't leave my foot on the footbrake when at a standstill. As you can imagine this is really annoying as it's the only dynamic problem with the car and I don't believe I'm driving fast enough to cause it.
Perhaps its worth swapping the pads from side to side in an attempt to "re-bed" them in? Maybe if I can get the DS2500 pads hot, they'll attack the discs and clean off the uneven layer? The judder does seem to go away if I brake hard, but when the pads get warm the problem gets worse.
Unstoppable said:
Perhaps its worth swapping the pads from side to side in an attempt to "re-bed" them in? Maybe if I can get the DS2500 pads hot, they'll attack the discs and clean off the uneven layer? The judder does seem to go away if I brake hard, but when the pads get warm the problem gets worse.
You shouldn't swap pads around. They'll be bedded in to the discs, so you'll have to bed them in again.I suspect your problem is you're using high performance brake pads and not braking anywhere near hard enough, leading to glazing and uneven pad deposits on the discs.
With DS2500 you'd really need to be beasting the brakes every other day. I had the same problem with VXR brakes on my Astra - they'd get horribly inefficient and vibrate. Solution? Short hard stop off the motorway daily (braking from 70mph 200m off the stop line) which cleaned the discs up and stopped the pads (OE VXR items from Pagid) glazing up.
HellDiver said:
Unstoppable said:
Perhaps its worth swapping the pads from side to side in an attempt to "re-bed" them in? Maybe if I can get the DS2500 pads hot, they'll attack the discs and clean off the uneven layer? The judder does seem to go away if I brake hard, but when the pads get warm the problem gets worse.
You shouldn't swap pads around. They'll be bedded in to the discs, so you'll have to bed them in again.I suspect your problem is you're using high performance brake pads and not braking anywhere near hard enough, leading to glazing and uneven pad deposits on the discs.
With DS2500 you'd really need to be beasting the brakes every other day. I had the same problem with VXR brakes on my Astra - they'd get horribly inefficient and vibrate. Solution? Short hard stop off the motorway daily (braking from 70mph 200m off the stop line) which cleaned the discs up and stopped the pads (OE VXR items from Pagid) glazing up.
DS2500 should be smoking when the initial bedding in cycle is completed properly.
Quote:
[i]FERODO DS2500's BEDDING-IN INSTRUCTIONS
To achieve optimum performance from Ferodo Racing brake pads please follow the instructions below:
1) Perform 25 to 30 trial brake applications, each of approximately 4 seconds, using around 50% of normal race pedal pressure. To shorten the procedure applications can be made along the straights as well as through bends.
2) On completion of trial applications return to the pit lane. Inspect the surface of the brake pads from the two wheels which have been working the hardest. There should be evidence of contact over the full pad area but without glazing. The pads are now ready to race.
Whilst we recommend that pads are inspected, if time does not allow this, assuming procedure (1) has been carried out and a short period of time has elapsed to allow the brake system to cool, the pads will be ready to race.
IMPORTANT: to optimize the performance and life of both brake pads and discs, during the bedding-in period heat in the braking system should be built up progressively.[/i]
Quote:
[i]FERODO DS2500's BEDDING-IN INSTRUCTIONS
To achieve optimum performance from Ferodo Racing brake pads please follow the instructions below:
1) Perform 25 to 30 trial brake applications, each of approximately 4 seconds, using around 50% of normal race pedal pressure. To shorten the procedure applications can be made along the straights as well as through bends.
2) On completion of trial applications return to the pit lane. Inspect the surface of the brake pads from the two wheels which have been working the hardest. There should be evidence of contact over the full pad area but without glazing. The pads are now ready to race.
Whilst we recommend that pads are inspected, if time does not allow this, assuming procedure (1) has been carried out and a short period of time has elapsed to allow the brake system to cool, the pads will be ready to race.
IMPORTANT: to optimize the performance and life of both brake pads and discs, during the bedding-in period heat in the braking system should be built up progressively.[/i]
For what its worth;
30mph and below, light braking results in minor judder, cured by moderate braking.
40-50mph, light braking results in heavy judder, cured by moderate braking.
80mph and above, light & moderate braking results in heavy judder, only cured by very hard application of the brakes.
Also, the warmer the brakes the worse the judder becomes.
30mph and below, light braking results in minor judder, cured by moderate braking.
40-50mph, light braking results in heavy judder, cured by moderate braking.
80mph and above, light & moderate braking results in heavy judder, only cured by very hard application of the brakes.
Also, the warmer the brakes the worse the judder becomes.
Edited by Unstoppable on Friday 16th April 13:06
I'm sure it's the effect of the DS2500 not being used aggressively enough and the resulting build up. I'm running them in my Honda at the moment and get the same thing after a week or two of commuter driving with only normal light braking.
Some enthusiastic use taking the long route home usually does the trick to clean them up and they're back to normal. Give it a go before you start looking for anything more sinister.
Some enthusiastic use taking the long route home usually does the trick to clean them up and they're back to normal. Give it a go before you start looking for anything more sinister.
You say you haven't been driving fast but then go on to say you're a late braker.
I suspect that if you sort out your driving style (with or without further specialist training) your problems will go away.
My own experience of uneven deposits on the discs is that they will clean up in normal driving. I've not tried the pads you're using now though. What makes you think you need them??
I suspect that if you sort out your driving style (with or without further specialist training) your problems will go away.
My own experience of uneven deposits on the discs is that they will clean up in normal driving. I've not tried the pads you're using now though. What makes you think you need them??
performance brakes require heat to work effectively, and mot getting it, especially in the cold winter can put a cold warp on the disc, where once you do stop and park a glazed and sticking pad may transfer its heat across to the disc and over time giving a judder. (acording to brembo)
Ok try this. I have to do it fairly regularly with my big brembos and DS2500s!
Go out, find a quiet mian road, get up to a decent speed, say 90 leptons, brake hard down to about 20mph, accelerate again and repeat, for about 5 times,
Then turn round if necessary and do some higher speed stops to zero, accelrate again and repeat, get them real real hot, (3am is a suitable time!)
ONce they are extremely hot and hoefully starting to fade a bit, drive the car on cruise and low speeds for about 30 minutes, if you can chose a route that means you dont need to use the brakes at all, if you do use them, make it very light.
The idea is to get the discs pads and calipers very hot, then let them cool whilst driving so as to stop any hot spots.
Once you get home, hopefully you are able to touch the discs and feel only gentle warmth. Next day, the discs are often pretty sharp and wobble should be far better if not gone.
If juddering develops once fitted, it is usually due to large discs getting hot, then parking up and in colder conditions meaning the discs open to the cols air cool quickly, whilst the part under the caliper stays hot for ages and as a result, the heat difference causes warping.
Getting them super hot and then cooling whislt rotating the disc can erradicate it, or at least improve it.
If you can shift the wobble, or if you get new discs to lose it, be cautious of driving too quick and using the brakes hard immediately before you are due to stop and park up. Also dont drive home wiht hot brakes then wash your car immediately when the discs will steam!
My mate with an M3 Evo actually goes out and moves his car back about half a wheel turn after having parked for about 10 mins, as he's sick of having to replace the two piece discs!
Have a go, be careful though and dont get nicked by plod doing it, and dont crash whilst trying to cool the brakes, scare fo using them, you can always cool them afterwards again!
Go out, find a quiet mian road, get up to a decent speed, say 90 leptons, brake hard down to about 20mph, accelerate again and repeat, for about 5 times,
Then turn round if necessary and do some higher speed stops to zero, accelrate again and repeat, get them real real hot, (3am is a suitable time!)
ONce they are extremely hot and hoefully starting to fade a bit, drive the car on cruise and low speeds for about 30 minutes, if you can chose a route that means you dont need to use the brakes at all, if you do use them, make it very light.
The idea is to get the discs pads and calipers very hot, then let them cool whilst driving so as to stop any hot spots.
Once you get home, hopefully you are able to touch the discs and feel only gentle warmth. Next day, the discs are often pretty sharp and wobble should be far better if not gone.
If juddering develops once fitted, it is usually due to large discs getting hot, then parking up and in colder conditions meaning the discs open to the cols air cool quickly, whilst the part under the caliper stays hot for ages and as a result, the heat difference causes warping.
Getting them super hot and then cooling whislt rotating the disc can erradicate it, or at least improve it.
If you can shift the wobble, or if you get new discs to lose it, be cautious of driving too quick and using the brakes hard immediately before you are due to stop and park up. Also dont drive home wiht hot brakes then wash your car immediately when the discs will steam!
My mate with an M3 Evo actually goes out and moves his car back about half a wheel turn after having parked for about 10 mins, as he's sick of having to replace the two piece discs!
Have a go, be careful though and dont get nicked by plod doing it, and dont crash whilst trying to cool the brakes, scare fo using them, you can always cool them afterwards again!
Edited by poo at Paul's on Saturday 17th April 18:00
I have used DS2500's and seen the exact same issue as reported. Its actually very common if you google DS2500 and judder.
The problem seems to be that pad deposits build up on the discs and cause the vibrations. You can't really get rid of it in my experience, if you remove the discs and clean them up with an abrasive to remove the deposits, they'll only reappear as soon as you start using the car again.
I know its not what you want to hear but I would ditch the DS2500's and go for something else, they will keep juddering regardless of what you do.
I now run the Carbotech XP8's and have never experienced any vibration or fade (once bedded in correctly) but you could try Friction Performance, Padgid, EBC Yellow etc all of which don't suffer with the same judder issue.
HTH
(BTW, all of the above is IMO, others experiences may differ but google should help back this up)
The problem seems to be that pad deposits build up on the discs and cause the vibrations. You can't really get rid of it in my experience, if you remove the discs and clean them up with an abrasive to remove the deposits, they'll only reappear as soon as you start using the car again.
I know its not what you want to hear but I would ditch the DS2500's and go for something else, they will keep juddering regardless of what you do.
I now run the Carbotech XP8's and have never experienced any vibration or fade (once bedded in correctly) but you could try Friction Performance, Padgid, EBC Yellow etc all of which don't suffer with the same judder issue.
HTH
(BTW, all of the above is IMO, others experiences may differ but google should help back this up)
I am just about replace my AP racing brakes running DS2500 pads on my M5 because of the same issue.
Judder at about 80 mph.
I have tried the braking from 80 to 20 trick but still have the judders.
I have now decided to go back to OEM brakes and I am having new calipers, discs, lines and pads fitted on Thursday.
I suppose i could just try a new set of pads, which might cure the problem but I just want to get the problem sorted out.
Look out on bay from next Friday for a set of AP racing calipers and discs for sale for an E39 M5.
Judder at about 80 mph.
I have tried the braking from 80 to 20 trick but still have the judders.
I have now decided to go back to OEM brakes and I am having new calipers, discs, lines and pads fitted on Thursday.
I suppose i could just try a new set of pads, which might cure the problem but I just want to get the problem sorted out.
Look out on bay from next Friday for a set of AP racing calipers and discs for sale for an E39 M5.
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