Anyone know about loft conversions / party walls etc ????
Discussion
Need some advice regarding my neighbour's proposed loft conversion.
We both live in mid-terraced houses and my neighbour wants to do a loft conversion, fair enough.
I have been handed a letter to say they will be undertaking a loft conversion and who the work will be carried out by. It mentions the conversion will involve the insertion of steel beams halfway into the party wall, that will sit on steel plates. It says in the unlikely event of damage occurring on my side of the party wall they will put it right. It also asks for us to let them know in writing "immediately" if we are happy for them to proceed.
I have also been handed a second letter "PARTY WALL AGREEMENT" to sign and return that we are/are not in agreement with the loft conversion being undertaken.
Now, knowing these people and the way they go about things (they tend to employ the cheapest cowboys for anything they do) I am a little concerned.
What is the best way of my safeguarding my interests here?
What happens if I do/don't sign the letter?
Do I have to allow them access into my loft?
Are they allowed to put scaffolding on my property without my permission?
I have asked to see the plans (they say they are not done yet) - are they obliged to show them to me?
Is there some other way of them doing a loft conversion without knocking through the party wall?
For the record I am not interested in being difficult for the sake of it but I know what these people are like and I would like to try and avoid any problems this will bring up by doing a bit of forward thinking.
Many thanks in advance for any constructive input
We both live in mid-terraced houses and my neighbour wants to do a loft conversion, fair enough.
I have been handed a letter to say they will be undertaking a loft conversion and who the work will be carried out by. It mentions the conversion will involve the insertion of steel beams halfway into the party wall, that will sit on steel plates. It says in the unlikely event of damage occurring on my side of the party wall they will put it right. It also asks for us to let them know in writing "immediately" if we are happy for them to proceed.
I have also been handed a second letter "PARTY WALL AGREEMENT" to sign and return that we are/are not in agreement with the loft conversion being undertaken.
Now, knowing these people and the way they go about things (they tend to employ the cheapest cowboys for anything they do) I am a little concerned.
What is the best way of my safeguarding my interests here?
What happens if I do/don't sign the letter?
Do I have to allow them access into my loft?
Are they allowed to put scaffolding on my property without my permission?
I have asked to see the plans (they say they are not done yet) - are they obliged to show them to me?
Is there some other way of them doing a loft conversion without knocking through the party wall?
For the record I am not interested in being difficult for the sake of it but I know what these people are like and I would like to try and avoid any problems this will bring up by doing a bit of forward thinking.
Many thanks in advance for any constructive input
Edited by Ribol on Thursday 8th April 17:50
The people can't be too bad as most would have ducked under the radar with regards the party wall agreement.
It is to protect both parties , a normal agreement where such works are being carried out.
You can employ the services of a Party Wall Surveyor to protect your interests , at their cost.
Tale lots of pics of your house on the party wall and dont be surprised if they poke a steel end through the wall
I believe there is a Party Wall surveyor on the board so will leave the rest to him
EDIT , yes , you should get to see the plans , and engineers calculations for the beams and spreader plates
It is to protect both parties , a normal agreement where such works are being carried out.
You can employ the services of a Party Wall Surveyor to protect your interests , at their cost.
Tale lots of pics of your house on the party wall and dont be surprised if they poke a steel end through the wall
I believe there is a Party Wall surveyor on the board so will leave the rest to him
EDIT , yes , you should get to see the plans , and engineers calculations for the beams and spreader plates
Edited by Busamav on Thursday 8th April 18:08
Busamav said:
Take lots of pics of your house on the party wall and dont be surprised if they poke a steel end through the wall
I fully expect that to happen and can see the odd brick ending up going through my ceilings, hence my concern at their choice of builders (the cheapest).Would the length of the beams be the same as the width of their house plus the thickness of the two party walls either side? Surely it won't go it without holes, will it?
Would employing a party wall surveyor (at their expense) be an unreasonable thing for a "neighbour" to do?
Any ideas how much that would cost them?
Sam_68 said:
Thanks for the link will read it and try to make some sense of it.Do you have any comments/views on my questions above?
Ribol said:
Do you have any comments/views on my questions above?
Not much, other than to second what Busamav says, in that you at least have to give them credit for going about it correctly.The booklet I gave you the link to will answer most of your questions, but the summary is that the best way to protect your interests is to be reasonable and unobstructive as far as possible.
You have protection under the party wall act sshould things go awry, but in the meanwhile they have legal rights to work on the party wall, so if you go out of your way to make things as diffcult as possible, the likely outcome is that you'll achieve little except making an enemy of your neighbour and run up some big legal and Surveyor's bills for you both along the way.
Ribol said:
Would the length of the beams be the same as the width of their house plus the thickness of the two party walls either side? Surely it won't go it without holes, will it?
Would employing a party wall surveyor (at their expense) be an unreasonable thing for a "neighbour" to do?
They could lift the beams into the loft space in 2 sections then bolt them togethor once in place.Would employing a party wall surveyor (at their expense) be an unreasonable thing for a "neighbour" to do?
I think it may be overkill , but not knowing the house or neighbour etc etc It is a hard call .
The act is there to protect you , so the answer has to be a no, it isnt unreasonable.
I would not go that route , but I have half a clue about what is involved .
Not sure on cost , but it could get to £1000 very quickly
If the OP does not approve of the works and a surveyor is employed at the neighbours expense does this expense ultimately fall on the OP if the Surveyor deems the work reasonable and can go ahead? Or is that not how it works.
It's a good idea in principal, this party wall thing, but it's just another party wanting their not inconsiderable pound of flesh.
Sounds to me like they are being fair and reasonable really. If you were to object/not consent to the works it will surely end in tears, and big bills.
It worries/annoys me that I don't need planning for a 2 storey extension on the rear of the house we are about to buy but the neighbours could contest the party wall act and cost me money I don't have.
It's a good idea in principal, this party wall thing, but it's just another party wanting their not inconsiderable pound of flesh.
Sounds to me like they are being fair and reasonable really. If you were to object/not consent to the works it will surely end in tears, and big bills.
It worries/annoys me that I don't need planning for a 2 storey extension on the rear of the house we are about to buy but the neighbours could contest the party wall act and cost me money I don't have.
Edited by dave_s13 on Thursday 8th April 19:33
[/quote]
They could lift the beams into the loft space in 2 sections then bolt them togethor once in place.
I think it may be overkill , but not knowing the house or neighbour etc etc It is a hard call .
[/quote]
In what respect do you mean overkill?
The party wall agreement or the need to add a steel?
It would seem (from the posts above) that they are pretty much doing it as they should.
They have not stated a proposed start date and according to the link above they should have included that in the letter and be giving me two months notice (unless I agree to let them start earlier) - am I understanding that correctly?
There is also some mention of restricting work hours etc, can I stop them from working weekends for instance? It would be nice to have some peace and quiet at the weekends? Is that down to neighbourly negotiation or can it be written in to any agreement?
I would prefer to avoid the surveyor at their expense route if it does not disadvantage me in any way. Is there any practical downside to not having one?
Apologies for all the questions and thanks again for any input.
They have not stated a proposed start date and according to the link above they should have included that in the letter and be giving me two months notice (unless I agree to let them start earlier) - am I understanding that correctly?
There is also some mention of restricting work hours etc, can I stop them from working weekends for instance? It would be nice to have some peace and quiet at the weekends? Is that down to neighbourly negotiation or can it be written in to any agreement?
I would prefer to avoid the surveyor at their expense route if it does not disadvantage me in any way. Is there any practical downside to not having one?
Apologies for all the questions and thanks again for any input.
From the OP's description they have not served a valid notice; if the OP dissents to the works (either by confirming he dissents in writing [although without a valid notice, questionable how this can be done] or by doing nothing (the act classes no response as dissent) then he can appoint / have appointed for him, a party wall surveyor who is obliged to act "for the wall". Provided the surveyor does not act vexatiously (e.g. sets out to make the building owner's - the people doing the work - project difficult out of mischief to favour the adjoining owner) then the building owner is obliged to meet the surveyor's costs.
It sounds like they are not familar with, or prepared to follow, the necessary procedures. If a gentle chat does not work, then an injunction is the only option. Either way, it is likely to create some tension between parties. That said, any record photographs (referred to as a schedule of condition) will only have teeth if they are agreed and there is a mechanism for resolving any damage that is caused - these issues are set out in the party wall award which the surveyor(s) publish to both parties. The party wall surveyor, who can be agreed by both parties and represent both to limit costs, will also decide whether proposals are satisfactory, and can, for example, request calculations for loading and even engage an engineer to check the calculations. Even the simplest job will head towards 4 figure fees very easily, which may be why they are going about it in an ad hoc manner.
As a surveyor, I'm clearly biased, but can imagine so many ways it could go wrong that the only way it should be done is properly.
It sounds like they are not familar with, or prepared to follow, the necessary procedures. If a gentle chat does not work, then an injunction is the only option. Either way, it is likely to create some tension between parties. That said, any record photographs (referred to as a schedule of condition) will only have teeth if they are agreed and there is a mechanism for resolving any damage that is caused - these issues are set out in the party wall award which the surveyor(s) publish to both parties. The party wall surveyor, who can be agreed by both parties and represent both to limit costs, will also decide whether proposals are satisfactory, and can, for example, request calculations for loading and even engage an engineer to check the calculations. Even the simplest job will head towards 4 figure fees very easily, which may be why they are going about it in an ad hoc manner.
As a surveyor, I'm clearly biased, but can imagine so many ways it could go wrong that the only way it should be done is properly.
Edited by Stegel on Thursday 8th April 23:02
Ribol said:
Stegel said:
From the OP's description they have not served a valid notice;............
Can I ask if that is due to them not stating a proposed starting date, or was it something else?If I were in your position I would write a polite letter back to them asking for the notification to be re-written in strict accordance with the guidance. I would state you can see no issues consenting to the work in principle providing the paper work is correct.
I would also take photo's of your side of the wall and get them to sign to agree this being the current condition.
I would hand this to them in person and explain it verbally too, maybe over a cup of tea/pint.
You should then be in a good position if they do make a boswolox of it.
A bit of empathy needed in these situations I suppose, it may one day be you wanting a bit more room and having to go through this from the other side.
herbialfa said:
dave_s13 said:
It worries/annoys me that I don't need planning for a 2 storey extension on the rear of the house we are about to buy but the neighbours could contest the party wall act and cost me money I don't have.
Are you sure??????Edited by dave_s13 on Thursday 8th April 19:33
I'm 99% sure.
3m max from line of orignal boundary. 7m min from boundary of garden to edge of new extension. Roof/bricks/windows of same style/colour. New roof below line of existing.
Sorted
Busamav said:
The people can't be too bad as most would have ducked under the radar with regards the party wall agreement.
Really????We've just had a loft conversion done. It went through on permitted development, so no planning permission was required, but even so, the builder wouldn't even order the steels until he'd seen the signed PWA, and the building controls guy needed to see it as well.
Unless you mean people forge them on behalf of their neighbours, I don't really see how you could duck round it?
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