RE: Nanny is my Copilot
Wednesday 20th March 2002
Nanny is my Copilot
ABS, ESP, DSC or BS? Driver controls - superb application of technology or unwelcome interference in your driving fun?
Discussion
I dislike this stuff intensely, but I wonder if it really does do all the things it claims to do?
Let's start with ABS. It probably works - you can feel it. The last car I had with bad habits under heavy braking was the Quattro. It locked up its front wheels at every opportunity, and you soon learned to be ultra-precise on the pedal if you wanted to steer the car.
Back in the fifties we had more trouble going into corners than going through them (racing), and you were forever correcting just to keep pointing in the right direction. That wouldn't happen during normal road use unless you misjudged a corner badly.
So Yes, OK, I'll accept ABS as a useful aid - not vital - just useful, and maybe a life-saver in the most extreme situations. But what about traction/stability control? I always switched it off on my Supra because the loss of power through corners was downright dangerous.
Now I have a Porsche 996 with nanny-everything. Once it's run-in I will try switching nanny off and see what happens. I shouldn't think it will make much difference, but maybe I'm wrong! Arrogance will get me nowhere? Please advise, Robert Farago, because I have a sneaking suspicion that this car still has an element of nannyism that you can't switch off.
I dislike the whole concept. If I'm going to get myself into trouble I'd rather do it with my eyes wide open.
Let's start with ABS. It probably works - you can feel it. The last car I had with bad habits under heavy braking was the Quattro. It locked up its front wheels at every opportunity, and you soon learned to be ultra-precise on the pedal if you wanted to steer the car.
Back in the fifties we had more trouble going into corners than going through them (racing), and you were forever correcting just to keep pointing in the right direction. That wouldn't happen during normal road use unless you misjudged a corner badly.
So Yes, OK, I'll accept ABS as a useful aid - not vital - just useful, and maybe a life-saver in the most extreme situations. But what about traction/stability control? I always switched it off on my Supra because the loss of power through corners was downright dangerous.
Now I have a Porsche 996 with nanny-everything. Once it's run-in I will try switching nanny off and see what happens. I shouldn't think it will make much difference, but maybe I'm wrong! Arrogance will get me nowhere? Please advise, Robert Farago, because I have a sneaking suspicion that this car still has an element of nannyism that you can't switch off.
I dislike the whole concept. If I'm going to get myself into trouble I'd rather do it with my eyes wide open.
I think the point here is that there are ABS systems and ABS systems.
Whilst they have the same name, they are nothing like each other, it's just a function of money..
Most volume cars have 2 channel cheap off the shelf ABS systems, they just about work, but they are not exactly ideal for several reasons.
You then have the better 4 channel systems (ala Merc/BMW) these are more able to work with the car as they have more info to go on.
After this you get to the sort of stuff GT cars have, the old DTM cars has 21 channel ABS, this worked off 3 ground sensing radar's, all 4 wheel speeds, 2 lateral and one longitudinal G sensors, etc. etc.
As car makers have to fit ABS these days from a marketing perspective if nothing else, they normally go for a cheap off the shelf system, thus their performance can often be worse than a good driver.
The top end systems are unbelievably good, no way can ANY driver do better.
As usual, it comes down to money…
Simon
Whilst they have the same name, they are nothing like each other, it's just a function of money..
Most volume cars have 2 channel cheap off the shelf ABS systems, they just about work, but they are not exactly ideal for several reasons.
You then have the better 4 channel systems (ala Merc/BMW) these are more able to work with the car as they have more info to go on.
After this you get to the sort of stuff GT cars have, the old DTM cars has 21 channel ABS, this worked off 3 ground sensing radar's, all 4 wheel speeds, 2 lateral and one longitudinal G sensors, etc. etc.
As car makers have to fit ABS these days from a marketing perspective if nothing else, they normally go for a cheap off the shelf system, thus their performance can often be worse than a good driver.
The top end systems are unbelievably good, no way can ANY driver do better.
As usual, it comes down to money…
Simon
McNab.
Have you ever managed to get PSM to actually interfere so's you'd notice? I'm interested. I have got the system to fire up when pulling out rapidly onto a roundabout (i.e. standing start) in wet and greasy conditions. Other than that my Boxster seems to have so much grip that even deliberately prodding the right hand pedal whilst cornering hard on a roundabout doesn't seem to upset it. True, I haven't switched off the electronics and done the same thing so....but the old "Drive Carefully!" light has never come on...perhaps I'm not trying hard enough!
I'm doing some PCGB Track days this year and hopefully I'll be able to explore this then.
Have you ever managed to get PSM to actually interfere so's you'd notice? I'm interested. I have got the system to fire up when pulling out rapidly onto a roundabout (i.e. standing start) in wet and greasy conditions. Other than that my Boxster seems to have so much grip that even deliberately prodding the right hand pedal whilst cornering hard on a roundabout doesn't seem to upset it. True, I haven't switched off the electronics and done the same thing so....but the old "Drive Carefully!" light has never come on...perhaps I'm not trying hard enough!
I'm doing some PCGB Track days this year and hopefully I'll be able to explore this then.
I reluctantly drag myself to the conclusion that, because you cannot guarantee from a driver's point of view that someone on a horse or a pair of walkers will not be fannying about in the middle of the road round the next bend, or that there won't be a patch of black ice under a tree you haven't taken account of, such devices are a good thing on the road.
From the point of view of a driver driving towards someone who has turned off such devices, I don't like the fact that my life is in his/her hands. They might be tired, not concentrating, drunk or incompetent. From the pov of saving MY life, I'd rather such devices existed.
Apart from on the car that I'm driving of course because I never drive when tired, always concentrate, never drink and drive and can see round corners.
Naturally.
From the point of view of a driver driving towards someone who has turned off such devices, I don't like the fact that my life is in his/her hands. They might be tired, not concentrating, drunk or incompetent. From the pov of saving MY life, I'd rather such devices existed.
Apart from on the car that I'm driving of course because I never drive when tired, always concentrate, never drink and drive and can see round corners.
Naturally.
quote:
Enthusiasts want to drive at the edge the envelope, while the average punter potters about deep inside Jiffy bag.
quote:
Perhaps the future lies in more variable driver's aids like BMW's new 7-Series, which allows three levels of electronic assistance. Well, it works for dildos doesn't it?
LOL! Loved it great article
Oh and McNab not to be rude, but don't forget you're more than likely just a little bit better behind the wheel than us average drivers
I've never really driven (as in pushed hard) a car with modern ABS/EBD etc, but I had a nasty fright the first time I drove my dad's 1993 merc 190 auto - was told it had traction control, so just floored it out of a junction, expecting TC to stop me doing an impersonation of a 70's US car chase, only to find the rear tyres light up and me fishtale off down the road! I was SO embarrassed, and I've never trusted electronic aids since. Always took it as a lesson that these aids are an emergency measure, not something to use routinely
BMW's ABS system on my r11gs is a fine addition to the machine's repertoire. Whether it works or not (and it always works) it's the difference it makes in your head that is interesting. I think it's called 'risk compensation' and essentially means that the more the vehicle 'helps' the more confident you are in the machine not reaching an operational limit - meaning that you drive with more gay abandon. On the bomber this translates into piling quicker than probably advisable into corners where you have doubts about front end grip - and as the telelever front end *always* gives rise to doubts about front end grip - this is actually very useful.
This leads to problems when v*lv*s
are involved (there was once a study in australia realiting to risk compensation and v*lv*s) - the safer the driver felt the more dangerous it was for other road users.
So the electronic aids may (like seatbelts) be a hidden 'cause' of some accidents, but may prevent others.
But it's all due perhaps to the cheaper performance available now. 50 years ago you probably were a driving god if you owned a 200hp anything. Now bavaria's finest is available to the masses, so the car must also be ready to be driven in 'numpty' mode.
This leads to problems when v*lv*s
are involved (there was once a study in australia realiting to risk compensation and v*lv*s) - the safer the driver felt the more dangerous it was for other road users. So the electronic aids may (like seatbelts) be a hidden 'cause' of some accidents, but may prevent others.
But it's all due perhaps to the cheaper performance available now. 50 years ago you probably were a driving god if you owned a 200hp anything. Now bavaria's finest is available to the masses, so the car must also be ready to be driven in 'numpty' mode.
I think for the vast majority of car drivers things like ABS are a good thing to have - they fill the gap for the less aware or experienced drivers. However, I dont understand that current "thrust" to have everything loaded. Ok, from the Porsche angle their Stability Control is supposed to be one of the best on the market - it is also good PR for them to not have the image that they had in the 70's with the old 911 Turbo - they had quite a bad reputation for ditch-finding and biting their owners hard.... but with the new ones (inc. Turbo) the chances of an inexperienced driver of cocking it up are reduced - hence a safe image....
But in general I dont understand it. If you barrel into a corner too quickly you cannot expect the electronic aids to bail you out. You shouldnt have been going so quickly in the first place! Also, my fear is that some manufacturers use the electronic aids to cover the fact that the underlying handling is poor - grip and handling are two different things as I have found out on a Rover 220GSI and an Audi A4. The Rover because it would bite at the limit and the A4 because it had terminal understeer.... The Audi now comes with the full set of aids which cover the fact that the on-limit grip is OK, while the off-limit handling is very so-so and designed for safey (understeer away!). A good handling car is one that will help and assist the driver through good mechanics rather than electronics...
Safety has become such an issue these days, but some are better features than others. For example, the new Laguna is the only car to have a 5 star NCAP rating, good as this means that it has been engineered to cope with particular impacts - reducing injury to the occupants. A nice feature. But should people really make a decision on safey based on the electronic aids that it has rather than the underlying engineering?
What really pi55es me off is that you get certain motoring journolists that poo-poo TVRs (and others too) for not having driver aids.... Why? Just because the Porsche comes with everything, does it make it a safer car? Not really as at the end of the day it is still down to the driver - on a slight side issue, I know of someone that managed to take his brand new 996 and spin it across a certain green in west London taking out two park benches and a parked car even with the aids switched on (Ok, so he was pi55ed at the time) - did they help?
Anyway, time to do some work now - rant is officially over.
Cheers,
Paul
But in general I dont understand it. If you barrel into a corner too quickly you cannot expect the electronic aids to bail you out. You shouldnt have been going so quickly in the first place! Also, my fear is that some manufacturers use the electronic aids to cover the fact that the underlying handling is poor - grip and handling are two different things as I have found out on a Rover 220GSI and an Audi A4. The Rover because it would bite at the limit and the A4 because it had terminal understeer.... The Audi now comes with the full set of aids which cover the fact that the on-limit grip is OK, while the off-limit handling is very so-so and designed for safey (understeer away!). A good handling car is one that will help and assist the driver through good mechanics rather than electronics...
Safety has become such an issue these days, but some are better features than others. For example, the new Laguna is the only car to have a 5 star NCAP rating, good as this means that it has been engineered to cope with particular impacts - reducing injury to the occupants. A nice feature. But should people really make a decision on safey based on the electronic aids that it has rather than the underlying engineering?
What really pi55es me off is that you get certain motoring journolists that poo-poo TVRs (and others too) for not having driver aids.... Why? Just because the Porsche comes with everything, does it make it a safer car? Not really as at the end of the day it is still down to the driver - on a slight side issue, I know of someone that managed to take his brand new 996 and spin it across a certain green in west London taking out two park benches and a parked car even with the aids switched on (Ok, so he was pi55ed at the time) - did they help?
Anyway, time to do some work now - rant is officially over.
Cheers,
Paul
hi guys,
lemme add my 2p's worth.
Smart vs 206, both of which I own.
Smart has electronic EVERYTHING, 206 doesn't. Hmmm. So why does my 206 stop quicker? easy! the chassis is better, and the suspension not compromised. I know you lot hate fwd, but my 206 (soon to be 307) is stable, has good ride control, wide track, and low c+g. The Smart is high, short, wide at the back, but very stiff springs. Pretty good if you're driving it like the town car it is supposed to be, but dangerous is driven as fast as the 206.
Let's hope that in future, manufacturers are not permited to punt out cars that are inheritantly unstable - but bailed out by gizmos !!!
rgds, Carl.
lemme add my 2p's worth.
Smart vs 206, both of which I own.
Smart has electronic EVERYTHING, 206 doesn't. Hmmm. So why does my 206 stop quicker? easy! the chassis is better, and the suspension not compromised. I know you lot hate fwd, but my 206 (soon to be 307) is stable, has good ride control, wide track, and low c+g. The Smart is high, short, wide at the back, but very stiff springs. Pretty good if you're driving it like the town car it is supposed to be, but dangerous is driven as fast as the 206.
Let's hope that in future, manufacturers are not permited to punt out cars that are inheritantly unstable - but bailed out by gizmos !!!
rgds, Carl.
I know a lot of people that rely upon the ABS of their cars to stop them. Thus they normaly drive far faster than is safe in that vehicle.
The whole motoring picture could easily be changed by bolting a large spike in the centre of the steering wheel. I'm sure everyone would suddenly drive differently.
The whole motoring picture could easily be changed by bolting a large spike in the centre of the steering wheel. I'm sure everyone would suddenly drive differently.
"But what about traction/stability control? I always switched it off on my Supra because the loss of power through corners was downright dangerous"
I run an Shaguar S-type (manual)and the DSC system is dreadful, hard acceleration on straight dry road + few minor bumps = flashing lights and no power! dont even show it a roundabout.
Ok its on standard suspension, not a sports car and I'm no driving god, but it is still far to sensitive. Still at least I can turn it off
I run an Shaguar S-type (manual)and the DSC system is dreadful, hard acceleration on straight dry road + few minor bumps = flashing lights and no power! dont even show it a roundabout.
Ok its on standard suspension, not a sports car and I'm no driving god, but it is still far to sensitive. Still at least I can turn it off
Carl, you've hit the nail on the proverbial here. 911s have always been inherently snappy, and the 996 worries me because its natural behaviour may be too well hidden. I'll find out eventually - I hope not the hard way! Incidentally, lots of FWD cars in this family have delighted. Corrado best, but an absolute sod on ice!
Fatboy, average drivers on PistonHeads? Come on! There isn't a numpty in sight - you can't have P'Head enthusiasm without learning the skills PDQ!
Manek..."tired, nor concentrating, drunk or incompetent"...now at last I know what they mean by incontinence!
Don, mine isn't run in enough to drive really hard, but as soon as it is I'll switch off the PSM. If I survive I'll report back... What worries me is the implication in the PR stuff that switching PSM off doesn't disable all the 'safety' features.
Robert Farago mentioned that PSM doesn't make all that much difference, and I wish he'd come back and elaborate. Let's just say that I didn't buy the car to be driven by an alien - I want to drive it myself.
Cheers all!
Fatboy, average drivers on PistonHeads? Come on! There isn't a numpty in sight - you can't have P'Head enthusiasm without learning the skills PDQ!
Manek..."tired, nor concentrating, drunk or incompetent"...now at last I know what they mean by incontinence!
Don, mine isn't run in enough to drive really hard, but as soon as it is I'll switch off the PSM. If I survive I'll report back... What worries me is the implication in the PR stuff that switching PSM off doesn't disable all the 'safety' features.
Robert Farago mentioned that PSM doesn't make all that much difference, and I wish he'd come back and elaborate. Let's just say that I didn't buy the car to be driven by an alien - I want to drive it myself.
Cheers all!
quote:
The whole motoring picture could easily be changed by bolting a large spike in the centre of the steering wheel. I'm sure everyone would suddenly drive differently.
-------------------------------------------------------
Woo hoo!! i'm not the only one who thinks this!!!
I've been saying that for ages too, glad it's not just me
McNab Good point
Should have put it more like average drivers like myself who have never really driven a real performance car hard. Can't really include most of this board in that
'far as I'm concerned with ESP/DSP, so long as you can turn it off, it's welcome to be there... saves eating tyres thru gratuitous four wheel drift 
I bet there are a few Tiv drivers who would get much more use out of their car if they could opt to engage some traction control in cold & wet conditions. Bet not many would admit it though
I bet there are a few Tiv drivers who would get much more use out of their car if they could opt to engage some traction control in cold & wet conditions. Bet not many would admit it though
Don't know about you lot but I have the best speed limiter/traction control/ABS/ESP/XYZ device in the world.
She sits in the passenger seat and is able to detect excessive g-forces, in both pitch and yaw, even during sleep mode
At which point she then switches automatically, in less than 0.5 nano sec, to transmit b*ll*ck*ng mode.
Then again, this device can be left at home when desired (allowed?).
Seriously though my everyday car has gizmos, lamps, buzzers and bells (well TC and ABS) the TC can be switched off but the ABS cannot. I have arrived at the T junction at the bottom of our avenue in the heavy frost and ice, having already slowed to 5-10mph before going near the brakes, only for the ABS to flash merrily at me but not slow me down
I maintain that if I could have switched it off the friction and heat from the locked up tyres would have ground through the thin layer of frost/ice and I would have stopped!! If you were wondering, no there was no other car coming across the junction when I finally came to a halt on the ridge of the road (stopped by gravity more than brakes!)
Harry
She sits in the passenger seat and is able to detect excessive g-forces, in both pitch and yaw, even during sleep mode
At which point she then switches automatically, in less than 0.5 nano sec, to transmit b*ll*ck*ng mode. Then again, this device can be left at home when desired (allowed?).
Seriously though my everyday car has gizmos, lamps, buzzers and bells (well TC and ABS) the TC can be switched off but the ABS cannot. I have arrived at the T junction at the bottom of our avenue in the heavy frost and ice, having already slowed to 5-10mph before going near the brakes, only for the ABS to flash merrily at me but not slow me down
I maintain that if I could have switched it off the friction and heat from the locked up tyres would have ground through the thin layer of frost/ice and I would have stopped!! If you were wondering, no there was no other car coming across the junction when I finally came to a halt on the ridge of the road (stopped by gravity more than brakes!) Harry
It is accepted that the build up of snow in front of locked up wheels can be more effective in stopping a car in snow than the carefully modulated braking of ABS.
Some Audi Quattros enabled you to turn off the ABS when required but I think some well intentioned but ill advised legislation put a stop to that.
ABS doesn't work on the handbrake but that tends to give the tail permission to go exploring. Perhaps a return to front wheel handbrakes would give the best of both worlds but the real solution is to fit more cars with great big V8s, slash the price of fuel and reduce road tax the more miles you cover, global warming will take care of the snow..problem gone!
>> Edited by gnomesmith on Tuesday 2nd April 23:15
Some Audi Quattros enabled you to turn off the ABS when required but I think some well intentioned but ill advised legislation put a stop to that.
ABS doesn't work on the handbrake but that tends to give the tail permission to go exploring. Perhaps a return to front wheel handbrakes would give the best of both worlds but the real solution is to fit more cars with great big V8s, slash the price of fuel and reduce road tax the more miles you cover, global warming will take care of the snow..problem gone!
>> Edited by gnomesmith on Tuesday 2nd April 23:15
Gassing Station | General Gassing [Archive] | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff