Discussion
I am getting a company car in September so my dream to own an Elise has arrived.
I currently run a Celica 190. I quite like the performance delivery. Hoping the gearing would be better in the Lotus though to help you stay in the power band.
Realistically I will have between 10-13000 to spend. Depending on what i get for the Celica.
Id like to get into a 111r however im not sure budget would allow.
The Celica is on 95000 miles and I know of plenty well into the 120k+ Still running wonderfully. I assume the engines will last just as well in the Lotus?
I am finally now at the stage I can start to do some proper research and hope to get into one within the next year. I would really like to get a drive/ride in various S2's. Not sure where would accommodate a 24 year old who wouldn't think they are wasting their time as I am in no rush to make a decision. I am in Derby if that helps with any suggestions on where to start looking.
Cheers for any help
Petrol
I currently run a Celica 190. I quite like the performance delivery. Hoping the gearing would be better in the Lotus though to help you stay in the power band.
Realistically I will have between 10-13000 to spend. Depending on what i get for the Celica.
Id like to get into a 111r however im not sure budget would allow.
The Celica is on 95000 miles and I know of plenty well into the 120k+ Still running wonderfully. I assume the engines will last just as well in the Lotus?
I am finally now at the stage I can start to do some proper research and hope to get into one within the next year. I would really like to get a drive/ride in various S2's. Not sure where would accommodate a 24 year old who wouldn't think they are wasting their time as I am in no rush to make a decision. I am in Derby if that helps with any suggestions on where to start looking.
Cheers for any help
Petrol
Edited by Petrol Only on Wednesday 24th March 04:10
You'll be very lucky to get a 111R for that budget. It's possible - there's a thread running about one for £12.5k with 70k miles, and one sold at the tail end of 2008 for about that with 77k miles, but they're rare.
Having had experience of the engine I understand your keenness to get a 111R, but I can't help thinking you'd have more choice and get a better condition car if you looked at a 111S. Even then though your budget will prove tight. I (and others) drove both and chose the 111S as I think the engine suits the car better and is more usuable more of the time on the road. The S is also lighter with non-ABS brakes and consequently feels different to the 111R.
IMHO the powerband / gearing is what's wrong with the 111R; it's a great engine, but to use it you have to be exceeding 60 in second. Below the second cam the engine (again, IMHO) is less characteristic and less engaging than the K VVC.
Other options would be a 135, 135R (track oriented) or standard S2. The 135 and 135R are good drives but not quite as addictive (IMHO) as the 111S. I haven't driven a standard S2.
Having had experience of the engine I understand your keenness to get a 111R, but I can't help thinking you'd have more choice and get a better condition car if you looked at a 111S. Even then though your budget will prove tight. I (and others) drove both and chose the 111S as I think the engine suits the car better and is more usuable more of the time on the road. The S is also lighter with non-ABS brakes and consequently feels different to the 111R.
IMHO the powerband / gearing is what's wrong with the 111R; it's a great engine, but to use it you have to be exceeding 60 in second. Below the second cam the engine (again, IMHO) is less characteristic and less engaging than the K VVC.
Other options would be a 135, 135R (track oriented) or standard S2. The 135 and 135R are good drives but not quite as addictive (IMHO) as the 111S. I haven't driven a standard S2.
Edited by griffter on Wednesday 24th March 08:20
Another vote for a 111S. I personally think it's a better car than the 111R (especially the early 111R which had a poorly set up brake pedal). I didn't particularly like the power delivery of the 111R either, although that's very much a personal thing.
13k is quite near the bottom end of the 111S market so you'll probably be looking at a private seller or a rather high mileage car from a dealer, although that needn't be a problem if it's been looked after properly. Buy on condition not mileage and budget to replace the head gasket at least once in the car's life (it generally costs around 500 quid to get it done properly at a Lotus indi).
13k is quite near the bottom end of the 111S market so you'll probably be looking at a private seller or a rather high mileage car from a dealer, although that needn't be a problem if it's been looked after properly. Buy on condition not mileage and budget to replace the head gasket at least once in the car's life (it generally costs around 500 quid to get it done properly at a Lotus indi).
save up and get the 111R
if you have a company car, it will not take long to save the extra to get the better car.
as for the power delivery bulls
t, yes it is poor , but a Lotus motorsport map cures all that and makes it great.
imho the 111R is a much better car all round, better built, faster, and the option to add a SC on it later for 250BHp
if you have a company car, it will not take long to save the extra to get the better car.
as for the power delivery bulls
t, yes it is poor , but a Lotus motorsport map cures all that and makes it great.imho the 111R is a much better car all round, better built, faster, and the option to add a SC on it later for 250BHp
Edited by mrdemon on Wednesday 24th March 09:44
The key word there being "imho". It's purely down to personal taste.
Also a 111R wont be any better built if it's the same age (unless you're referring to the build quality of the engine itself). Newer cars are better built but any two cars of the same age will be pretty similar in terms of build quality, regardless of what engine is in them.
The 111R is a bit faster but you have to push it harder to extract the performance (the torque below the cam change point in the 111R and 111S is pretty similar but the 111S is almost 10% lighter.
Also a 111R wont be any better built if it's the same age (unless you're referring to the build quality of the engine itself). Newer cars are better built but any two cars of the same age will be pretty similar in terms of build quality, regardless of what engine is in them.
The 111R is a bit faster but you have to push it harder to extract the performance (the torque below the cam change point in the 111R and 111S is pretty similar but the 111S is almost 10% lighter.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th March 10:29
10% lighter lol
dream on
maybe a s1 or a 2001 standard S2 is 10% lighter but alass not a 111S with the same spec as a 111R
as for build Lotus build gets better year after year.
As I say it's imho, and you have your's and like the 111S better and I have mine, every one's happy.
as for
"The 111R is a bit faster but you have to push it harder to extract the performance"
er that's is the fun of driving :-)
dream on
maybe a s1 or a 2001 standard S2 is 10% lighter but alass not a 111S with the same spec as a 111R
as for build Lotus build gets better year after year.
As I say it's imho, and you have your's and like the 111S better and I have mine, every one's happy.
as for
"The 111R is a bit faster but you have to push it harder to extract the performance"
er that's is the fun of driving :-)
Edited by mrdemon on Wednesday 24th March 11:04
Forget the 111R. IMHO a Honda Powered Elise is a far better track and road weapon, slap a SC and charge cooler on them and you have an easy 300bhp or thereabouts.
Have a look for Audi/Duractec powered cars. Again a much better car than any 111R.
Of course these opinions are purely my own but never discount any engine swaped elise.
Have a look for Audi/Duractec powered cars. Again a much better car than any 111R.
Of course these opinions are purely my own but never discount any engine swaped elise.
mrdemon said:
10% lighter lol
dream on
maybe a s1 or a 2001 standard S2 is 10% lighter but alass not a 111S with the same spec as a 111R
as for build Lotus build gets better year after year.
As I say it's imho, and you have your's and like the 111S better and I have mine, every one's happy.
as for
"The 111R is a bit faster but you have to push it harder to extract the performance"
er that's is the fun of driving :-)
dream on
maybe a s1 or a 2001 standard S2 is 10% lighter but alass not a 111S with the same spec as a 111R
as for build Lotus build gets better year after year.
As I say it's imho, and you have your's and like the 111S better and I have mine, every one's happy.
as for
"The 111R is a bit faster but you have to push it harder to extract the performance"
er that's is the fun of driving :-)
My 111S weighs a tiny bit over 800kg wet with half a tank of fuel and a boot full of crap (and no driver). I've never seen a wet 111R get even close to that. You can't compare spec for spec because some things which are standard on a 111R aren't available on a 111S at all (like a brake servo). A standard early S1 will be a good 10% lighter than mine again. I agree that pushing a sports car hard is half the fun of owning it, I don't mind the lack of torque of the 111R engine as such; what I personally don't like is the step in the torque curve. I know this can be improved upon by bringing the cam change point down, though.
As you say though, I think my car is better; you think your car is better so we're both happy. Any prospective buyer really ought to drive both though. The automatic assumption that the 111R is "better" is, IMHO, flawed. It's a matter of personal preference. If someone offered me a straight swap for a 111R I wouldn't even consider it.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th March 12:27
Petrol Only said:
Thank you for your responses thus far. I guess the only way is to get out and drive them ALL 
. surely an engine swap s2 would be out of budget? VTEC drool...
There is a Audi S1 on pistonheads at the moment for about 13K if I remember rightly. Last HPE I saw went for around about 15K i think. . surely an engine swap s2 would be out of budget? VTEC drool...The problem with the 111R is the low down power is not as good as the S and I find the S more road friendly than the R. though to be honest if you bring down the cam change and drop a SC it fixes the problem and the little S has zero chance of keeping up with you. Of course modding your 111R is pretty easy but it has lots and lots of pitfalls. The gearbox is made out of mush and give it any amount of decent power and it will lunch itself, the engine is really to high compression for any real forced induction power so any FI yuou stick on will be running low boost. Pointless IMHO.
In all fairness given the options out there a Honda/Audi elise which has had the money spent on it will be far more rewarding and cheaper overall. IN fact I wish I had gone down this route instead of modding my 111R.
i prefer the elise s, as can concentrate on keeping up momentum rather than keeping the engine on boil. would probably go for an R if i was a better driver and could cope or if it was going to go on track, but best thing you can do is get yourself over to somewhere you can test drive the options back to back.
i also live in derby and if you fancy a passenger ride in an elise s then feel free to pm me, but to be honest you'd get a lot more from going to stratstone leicester who would happily get you out in one. I am only 29 (28 when got the car) and were fine for test drives.
im ripley area and work in castle donington if any use.
i also live in derby and if you fancy a passenger ride in an elise s then feel free to pm me, but to be honest you'd get a lot more from going to stratstone leicester who would happily get you out in one. I am only 29 (28 when got the car) and were fine for test drives.
im ripley area and work in castle donington if any use.
"My 111S weighs a tiny bit over 800kg wet with half a tank of fuel and a boot full of crap (and no driver). I've never seen a wet 111R get even close to that."
look harder, :-)
the early 2001 S2 were quite light, but the later ones are foam filled and have air con
to say a 111s is 10% less weight is a bit unrealistic. my Exige only was 870kg fully loaded, with poil coolers, harness bar and 3/4 fuel.
I would say with no air con and the lighter 111r you coud see 810KG no problem
look harder, :-)
the early 2001 S2 were quite light, but the later ones are foam filled and have air con
to say a 111s is 10% less weight is a bit unrealistic. my Exige only was 870kg fully loaded, with poil coolers, harness bar and 3/4 fuel.
I would say with no air con and the lighter 111r you coud see 810KG no problem
Petrol Only said:
Thank you for your responses thus far. I guess the only way is to get out and drive them ALL .
You've answered your own question. They're all great cars and while different engines perform in different ways (shock horror!) means that people have different opinions based on their differing values (shock horror!) what binds us all together as Lotus enthusiasts is the way they drive.. Coming from the Celica, the Elise will be a revelation, you'll understand what a car should feel like and this benchmark will stay with you for the rest of your driving life and always be a point of comparison.
The simple fact is that for real world road driving any elise derivative is more than fast enough, if you are mainly interested in drag racing the elise is not the car for you. If you are experienced in track driving and want a car capable of quicker lap times without any consideration of driver skill, go for the biggest power to weight ratio you can afford. I love the fact that the standard car is so much fun to drive at legal speeds, cornering speed is a function of the grip and handling rather than outright engine power, and there's only so much power you can use exiting the corner and down the straight without driving at irresponsible speeds on public roads.
My advise would be to the best car you can find irrespective of engine or model. Well cared for cars with the right upgrades/ maintenance already carried out (suspension/steering rack/geo/cam belts etc.) will give you the chance to enjoy what makes these cars great, and at your price point, if you look after it, you won't lose a great deal when it comes to selling it. This will leave you plenty of time to try out all the other variations of the theme and decide for yourself which engine/ configuration you prefer, you can always upgrade when finances (or should that be fiances?!) allow.
You have suggested driving them all and I would agree, however the car is more important than the engine.
Happy hunting, buy wisely and you won't be disappointed.
Regards, Neil
Neil, Spot on! Sensible comments, I wholeheartedly agree.
BTW don't be put off by the S2 K series. You'll find more of these in your budget and they are fine, lighter and a number of people (inc me) prefer the engine resonse to the Toyota. The head gasket failure spectre is less of a problem with the later units which used steel guides rather than plastic - (like most engines, just don't let it run out of coolant!)
You may want to consdier paying (very) slightly more and getting from a main dealer with 12mth warranty MOT and TAX. It's a good time to haggle the price down.
Happy hunting
Ian
BTW don't be put off by the S2 K series. You'll find more of these in your budget and they are fine, lighter and a number of people (inc me) prefer the engine resonse to the Toyota. The head gasket failure spectre is less of a problem with the later units which used steel guides rather than plastic - (like most engines, just don't let it run out of coolant!)
You may want to consdier paying (very) slightly more and getting from a main dealer with 12mth warranty MOT and TAX. It's a good time to haggle the price down.
Happy hunting
Ian
Ianss2 said:
Neil, Spot on! Sensible comments, I wholeheartedly agree.
BTW don't be put off by the S2 K series. You'll find more of these in your budget and they are fine, lighter and a number of people (inc me) prefer the engine resonse to the Toyota. The head gasket failure spectre is less of a problem with the later units which used steel guides rather than plastic - (like most engines, just don't let it run out of coolant!)
You may want to consdier paying (very) slightly more and getting from a main dealer with 12mth warranty MOT and TAX. It's a good time to haggle the price down.
Happy hunting
Ian
Not sure it is really time to haggle as we are approaching the best months for Elise ownership!BTW don't be put off by the S2 K series. You'll find more of these in your budget and they are fine, lighter and a number of people (inc me) prefer the engine resonse to the Toyota. The head gasket failure spectre is less of a problem with the later units which used steel guides rather than plastic - (like most engines, just don't let it run out of coolant!)
You may want to consdier paying (very) slightly more and getting from a main dealer with 12mth warranty MOT and TAX. It's a good time to haggle the price down.
Happy hunting
Ian
Edited by Stu_00 on Thursday 25th March 08:45
Stu_00 said:
Ianss2 said:
Neil, Spot on! Sensible comments, I wholeheartedly agree.
BTW don't be put off by the S2 K series. You'll find more of these in your budget and they are fine, lighter and a number of people (inc me) prefer the engine resonse to the Toyota. The head gasket failure spectre is less of a problem with the later units which used steel guides rather than plastic - (like most engines, just don't let it run out of coolant!)
You may want to consdier paying (very) slightly more and getting from a main dealer with 12mth warranty MOT and TAX. It's a good time to haggle the price down.
Happy hunting
Ian
Not sure it is really time to haggle as we are approaching the best months for Elise ownership!BTW don't be put off by the S2 K series. You'll find more of these in your budget and they are fine, lighter and a number of people (inc me) prefer the engine resonse to the Toyota. The head gasket failure spectre is less of a problem with the later units which used steel guides rather than plastic - (like most engines, just don't let it run out of coolant!)
You may want to consdier paying (very) slightly more and getting from a main dealer with 12mth warranty MOT and TAX. It's a good time to haggle the price down.
Happy hunting
Ian
Edited by Stu_00 on Thursday 25th March 08:45
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff