Titanium Engines
Discussion
Gazboy said:
hiens1 said:
Has any car company made an Entierly Titanium engine yet?
nope
Why not? (thinking F1)
F1 engines use Beryllium, which is even lighter, and for regular car engines I wouldn't have thought the potential for weight saving over aluminium would make it worthwhile on a cost basis....
Gazboy is right
Titanium is exspensive but at least its fairly well attainible and is fairly strong too. So the price of Beryllium would probably bo too grat for the averagee consumer. Speaking of F1s though there are a few for sale on the net w/out engins. 3mo. ago I found one for 20,000 USD year 2000 mint cond. Of course if u want a new one just go to www.f1-sales.com/.
>> Edited by hiens1 on Friday 20th February 02:03
Titanium is exspensive but at least its fairly well attainible and is fairly strong too. So the price of Beryllium would probably bo too grat for the averagee consumer. Speaking of F1s though there are a few for sale on the net w/out engins. 3mo. ago I found one for 20,000 USD year 2000 mint cond. Of course if u want a new one just go to www.f1-sales.com/.
>> Edited by hiens1 on Friday 20th February 02:03
Frik said:
Titanium is expesive cause it's an absolute git to machine! Making large intricate parts is so difficult that it negates the advantages Titanium has over aluminum alloys.
It's also an absolute git to refine from ore - normally done by converting the dioxide to a tetrachloride, which is then reduced to titanium metal by reaction with sodium - and to cap it all off, it's a batch rather than a flow process, making it even more expensive to produce.
This may be a little out of date, but I'm pretty sure it's still how titanium is refined...
Titanium is also expensive.......
it reacts with everything when you are trying to extract it from its ore. As a liquid, it dissolves or is dissolved by everything. It reacts with nitrogen and so this must be dealt with in an inert (Ar) or vacuum.
Beryllium is more rare (titanium isn't) and is a hazard to machine, a sod to purify and is generally toxic and horrible. It does however do it's job well but if your engine seizes and you have a beryllium fire, you are screwed.....
Better off using aluminium or a blower to compensate for the weight.
Perhaps, if you want to go around corners quickly, buy a mini!!
>> Edited by kneegrow on Friday 20th February 21:47
it reacts with everything when you are trying to extract it from its ore. As a liquid, it dissolves or is dissolved by everything. It reacts with nitrogen and so this must be dealt with in an inert (Ar) or vacuum.
Beryllium is more rare (titanium isn't) and is a hazard to machine, a sod to purify and is generally toxic and horrible. It does however do it's job well but if your engine seizes and you have a beryllium fire, you are screwed.....
Better off using aluminium or a blower to compensate for the weight.
Perhaps, if you want to go around corners quickly, buy a mini!!
>> Edited by kneegrow on Friday 20th February 21:47
cptsideways said:
Titanium is heavier than aluminium, it is often used for valves & conrods as it is about 40% lighter than steel but has similar properties.
Blocks are nowadays made of aluminium, along with heads for good heat transfer, no point using titanium there.
Yeah, but even though titanium is heavier (4507kg/m3) than aluminum metal (2700kg/m3), still the aluminum alloys used in engine building (no one in their right mind would use pure aluminum, it is too soft) are a bit heavier and I think, in terms of comparable strength, titanium might still be a bit lighter. Possibly why high-end cars use it for high-stress parts like con-rods where low weights are critical.
What about magnesium alloys though? If the density of pure magnesium (1738kg/m3) is any indication of the weight of its various allows, surely there is a way to make a lighter block using them. Is there a metallurgist in the house? Why isn't anyone using magnesium alloys to build engines? Perhaps a magnesium-titanium alloy with the lightness of the former and the strength of the latter.
Also, how about the idea of using ceramic or Invar to make the block and then not having to worry about the weight of the water-cooling system because there's no need to cool it? The block might be heavier but the total weight of the engine would be lower.
Jon Gwynne said:
What about magnesium alloys though? If the density of pure magnesium (1738kg/m3) is any indication of the weight of its various allows, surely there is a way to make a lighter block using them. Is there a metallurgist in the house? Why isn't anyone using magnesium alloys to build engines? Perhaps a magnesium-titanium alloy with the lightness of the former and the strength of the latter.
VW beetle engine and gearbox were a magnesium alloy.
Some Jaguar Group C engines had magnesium blocks, they ran them down the line at Radford then had a bit of a panic removing the swarf in case somebody threw a stray fag in the bins.
Ferrari made their Formula One engines a few years ago in cast iron, yes, I am being absolutely serious - cast iron because it casts stably and you can use very thin wall sections.
GavinPearson said:
Ferrari made their Formula One engines a few years ago in cast iron, yes, I am being absolutely serious - cast iron because it casts stably and you can use very thin wall sections.
Interestingly enough, that's the reason aluminium blocks took a long time to take off with US manufacturers - whilst engines like the buick (later rover) V8 were very light, more advanced thinwalled cast iron blocks were a genuine rival to the contemporary aluminium block for strength/weight ratio, and were both easier to cast and required less careful maintenance...
Titanium block? Why? Aluminium metal matrix blocks are in production and have been for years (since the early 1990's) - the weight of ally with the strength of boron fibres (think carbon fibre but metal). Titanium would be heavier for a given stiffness as it's springy stuff (which is why it's good for valve springs)
Titanium head casting? Ignoring the manufacturing nightmare for a moment - you just don't need that sort of strength in the head as most of it is just there to channel air flow.
Cam covers - carbon is the lightest material to use for these, but production plastic ones are nearly as light and much, much cheaper
Inlet manifold - carbon with plastic a close second
Exhaust manifold - titanium
Engine internals - if it sees tension or bending use titanium (crank and rods), if it see compression use aluminium (pistons).
It is tempting to pick a "super material" and try to make everything from it, but nothing is that good.
Ceramics do have amazing properties, but show me a ceramic fastener and I'll show you a brittle fracture.
Titanium head casting? Ignoring the manufacturing nightmare for a moment - you just don't need that sort of strength in the head as most of it is just there to channel air flow.
Cam covers - carbon is the lightest material to use for these, but production plastic ones are nearly as light and much, much cheaper
Inlet manifold - carbon with plastic a close second
Exhaust manifold - titanium
Engine internals - if it sees tension or bending use titanium (crank and rods), if it see compression use aluminium (pistons).
It is tempting to pick a "super material" and try to make everything from it, but nothing is that good.
Ceramics do have amazing properties, but show me a ceramic fastener and I'll show you a brittle fracture.
I know a chap was responsible for the development team for new materials at the RAE in Farnbrough, he's since retired. But his department were the ones we have to thank for all this lovely stuff.
Amongst his claims to fame were:
Carbon Fibre
Metal Matrix Composites (Think Elise Mk1 front discs)
Ceramic Composites etc
They just played around with (boffined) different materials all day, the end results are in use to day in all sorts of applications. Apparently there was lots more stuff they developed but could'nt find an application for.
A lot of new cars are coming with magnesium components to save weight, its cheap too.
Amongst his claims to fame were:
Carbon Fibre
Metal Matrix Composites (Think Elise Mk1 front discs)
Ceramic Composites etc
They just played around with (boffined) different materials all day, the end results are in use to day in all sorts of applications. Apparently there was lots more stuff they developed but could'nt find an application for.
A lot of new cars are coming with magnesium components to save weight, its cheap too.
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