Al Melling's C&SC Comments

[The Surveyor]

Following on from the excellant TVR article in Classic and Sports Car Magazine a few months ago, Al Melling has responded with a few clarifications within this months letters section.

Now I have no axe to grind with Al Melling as he contributed to the design of the fantastic Speed 6 engine in my Tuscan, but why does he feel the need to 'correct' parts of the article which were more than likly just editorial errors. I'm not looking to start the "who designed the speed 6, and who is responsible for the faults...." debate, but given Peter Wheeler is no longer able to respond with his version, it just smacks of being petty IMHO.

Wouldn't it have been best just to keep quiet... Any thoughts?

Paul

[the man]

Take what ever Melling says with a pinch of salt. As you say Peter is no longer with us and he would never of lowered himself to public slagging matches anyway, as he was more of a gent than that.I have heard some of Melling's story telling and it was full of S--T.

[Chris71]

I met a chap a while back who explained the whole Speed Six saga to me. I didn't know who he was intially and took it with the usual pinch of salt until I discovered he'd been high up in TVR at the time. Legend has it that basically TVR wouldn't pay the bill at first, so Melling gave them an early version of the designs and witheld the corrected versions until they paid in full, which they never did.

[the man]

The Melling version of the engine went on the dyno and blew up in less than 20 min so John Ravenscroft re-designed it. Most of the S6 engine problems were down to poor quality parts fitted rather than design problems. There was allsorts of problems with who owes what and to who and we will never know the true story as we have only got Melling to tell his version but none of them details are anything to do with anybody but them anyway.

[Gazzab]

It is one the mysteries of the universe! But ulimately TVR persisted in selling engines that werent up to scratch regardless of design and parts. So I say TVR are culpable. They might have got there in the end but it took 6 years or more. I like Al and whilst he seems to have an approach or personality that grates, he designed the AJP ! Well done that man.

Does it really matter what he says - surely its more important re how you react to what is said rather than what is said.

[the man]

Yes the AJP8 in my eyes is a good engine too but credit to the J and P in the name (John Ravenscroft and Peter Whealer) But im biased as i am ex factory.

[machinehead]

the man said:

The Melling version of the engine went on the dyno and blew up in less than 20 min so John Ravenscroft re-designed it. Most of the S6 engine problems were down to poor quality parts fitted rather than design problems. There was allsorts of problems with who owes what and to who and we will never know the true story as we have only got Melling to tell his version but none of them details are anything to do with anybody but them anyway.

ex-factory myself...yes the early engines were full of substandard parts...from India and Mexico if i remember correctly....which basically were just crap. i remember seeing a car that came back, it had less than 900 miles on the clock !!but i must admit when good parts went in it was ok..

[flyingdutchie]

Must admit that the character of both engines is iconic. One of the AJP guys did lose it completely when it was down to the fact of poor parts. It is asking to go bust.....

I really did hear hear stories of different makes of pistons that went in and liners with kit around them. Sure this cannot all be Al's fault.

[grahamw48]

The Surveyor said:

Following on from the excellant TVR article in Classic and Sports Car Magazine a few months ago, Al Melling has responded with a few clarifications within this months letters section.

Now I have no axe to grind with Al Melling as he contributed to the design of the fantastic Speed 6 engine in my Tuscan, but why does he feel the need to 'correct' parts of the article which were more than likly just editorial errors. I'm not looking to start the "who designed the speed 6, and who is responsible for the faults...." debate, but given Peter Wheeler is no longer able to respond with his version, it just smacks of being petty IMHO.

Wouldn't it have been best just to keep quiet... Any thoughts?

Paul

When did you ever meet an Engineer who wasn't petty ? It's their job.

[The Surveyor]

Some interesting views above, and it just goes to prove that we will never know the full story on this. For info, here is the full text of the letter copies from this months C&SC mag. Hope i'm not breaking any copyright rules, but we're all in the arms of 'Haymarket' here anyway....:-

Melling's Defence
I read your TVR story (C&SC, December 2009) with interest, but would like to correct a few points - there are already enough untruths about TVR out there without your magazine printing more!
1) The AJP8 engine was designed by myself and totally drawn and engineered by Melling Consultancy Desing (MCD, 10 people).
2)The AJP8, the AJP12 and the AJP6 were first produced with steel cranks, The request to change material came from Peter Wheeler to get the price of the crank down. It was accomplished by using High Tensile Sphariodial Cast Iron, which at the time was used by Jaguar and VW and, of course, all diesel engines. This was designed by MCD and was originally manufactured by Granger and Worral. There were casting problems in the first ones, then Grangers got sorted and the cranks were fine. The Speed 6 engine always used cast-iron cranks.
3) I'm not aware of any fire escape at the TVR factory at the time, and it would not be good to drop a crank anyway. Plus no cranks ever went to Blackpool until they were finished.
4) The AJP6 engine was designed and built by MCD. The first 'sixes' delivered 410bhp without any development, then MCD's contract was over and the AJP6 was modified by TVR and turned into the Speed 6 engine. This was a complete modification to valve-gear and crank (the MCD design used a steel EN40 crank) and that engine has never given more than 400bhp, no matter what size.
Al Melling (via e-mail)

Any further thoughts guys...

Paul

[Gazzab]

Any thoughts on what he said or the fact that he said it?

I say its a free country and best of luck to Al. Nothing rude said, just him correcting the facts based on his perspective.

[fog66]

As you know Paul I'm a V8 man and as Fred Flinstone designed and built mine it will still be going in the next ice age! However as you kindly took me out in your car a few weeks back I cam honestly say that the sp6 engine in your car definately works and works well. I think Mr Melling (not met him, don't know much about him) is saying if you're gonna publish something and credit good or bad to me then at least have your facts right. In the grand scheme of things he is probably wasting his time however he may still have some raffles to organise and wants to protect his reputation wherever he can. Anyway, when's it gonna stop bloody raining so we can get out and drive instead if sitting in front of the chuffin computer writing pooooo.

[The Surveyor]

Gazzab said:

Any thoughts on what he said or the fact that he said it?

I say its a free country and best of luck to Al. Nothing rude said, just him correcting the facts based on his perspective.

As i say at the start, i've nothing against Al Melling, i just think it's bad form that he can't let this lie. I don't think there is any doubt that both Al Melling and Peter Wheeler made judgement errors which led to the initial Speed 6 problems. The number of original owners who were looking to sue for compensation over the early engine failures will always mean both parties went on the defensive, however when one party is no longer able to commit his 'facts' to print, maybe he should keep thinks to himself.

Oh and just to comment on the engine saga, if the AJP6 design was so good and met Peter Wheeler's brief, why would TVR need to redesign it? Wheeler must have set a target unit cost for each engine and if the AJP6 was too expensive and needed cheaper components, did Al Melling fail the brief?

Paul

[Gazzab]

The Surveyor said:

Gazzab said:

Any thoughts on what he said or the fact that he said it?

I say its a free country and best of luck to Al. Nothing rude said, just him correcting the facts based on his perspective.

As i say at the start, i've nothing against Al Melling, i just think it's bad form that he can't let this lie. I don't think there is any doubt that both Al Melling and Peter Wheeler made judgement errors which led to the initial Speed 6 problems. The number of original owners who were looking to sue for compensation over the early engine failures will always mean both parties went on the defensive, however when one party is no longer able to commit his 'facts' to print, maybe he should keep thinks to himself.

Oh and just to comment on the engine saga, if the AJP6 design was so good and met Peter Wheeler's brief, why would TVR need to redesign it? Wheeler must have set a target unit cost for each engine and if the AJP6 was too expensive and needed cheaper components, did Al Melling fail the brief?

Paul

Then let it lie?

[TVR_owner]

Gazzab said:

Any thoughts on what he said or the fact that he said it?

I say its a free country and best of luck to Al. Nothing rude said, just him correcting the facts based on his perspective.

Never one to allow the truth to get in the way of good self publicity..

[V8 GRF]

TVR never answered Al's criticisms of the Speed6 redesign or his defence of the original design. John Ravenscroft would be the man to answer but he has always kept his councel on that so Al's comments are always left hanging. Probably the wisest way.

Al might have valid grievences but he likes the sound of his own too much and as a result his comments end up sounding petty. I'd suggest his contribution above is merely an attempt to 'have the last word'

[V8s ONLY]

Ive read all these stories over the years and you will never get to the bottom of it. A short version is this- Al Melling asked to design engine,Its a great engine but far too expensive for production,Al doesnt want to compromise so Peter Wheeler asks John Ravencroft to redesign so that its viable for production.This happens all the time with variable results,unfortunatly it didnt work for TVR.

[T350 Al]

The Surveyor said:

the AJP6 was modified by TVR and turned into the Speed 6 engine. This was a complete modification to valve-gear and crank (the MCD design used a steel EN40 crank) and that engine has never given more than 400bhp, no matter what size.

Paul

TVR Power have achieved way over the 400bhp mark with their 4.3; given the component list on Power's website, Melling's comments (to a layperson such as myself) seem to hold some truth? ie: new crank, valve gear etc.

[rev-erend]

V8s ONLY said:

Ive read all these stories over the years and you will never get to the bottom of it. A short version is this- Al Melling asked to design engine,Its a great engine but far too expensive for production, Al doesnt want to compromise so Peter Wheeler asks John Ravencroft to redesign so that its viable for production.This happens all the time with variable results,unfortunatly it didnt work for TVR.

I think you are a bit wide of the mark..

Peter W signed up Al Melling to design AJP8 for a fixed price (PO) and job is a good-un. Design was already around before PW (IMHO), with the TVR order for this superb design it was production engineered and developemnt started. Costing was done and the dry sump had to be binned as the unit cost was too high. Development done it went to full production. A few issues arised such as the woodruff key and some others but they were resolved by the customer guinea pigs (oops did I say that out loud )

Next the speed 6 was requested - as PW loved his Astons with the straigh 6 and viewed it as a very British engine format and the need for a cleaner 4 valve layout was felt to be needed.. AM now did a clean sheet
design and delivered a prototype for development.. but at this point the relation ship broke down or became strained butween the parties.. both very forceful personalities. There was no contract (just a PO) as the gentlemen did not feel this was needed.. the party was over. TVR had part paid .. AM walked .. TVR then began development but was mindful of the fact the IP may belong to AM should be ever to go court .. so began a redesign to distance their engine from his. Note that he calls his engine a differnt name to theirs and from talking to him - he suggested it was not needed as he would not have taken them to court for IP anyway.

That's about it as far as I know the story.

Sadly the TVR S6 suffered some issues .. some possibly from the redesign and definately more from faulty parts.

Edited by rev-erend on Monday 8th February 15:41