How stunning does this look?
Discussion
Hmm.
Yes, it undoubtedly looks the part, but I really hope it's restricted to the point where it's uncompetitive. It isn't a GTS: it isn't even a supercar. It's an Enzo in a low-drag body which has been developed as a pure racecar, which essentially makes it a GT1 car in my eyes. Even that fabulous new V10, pushrod suspended, carbon-tubbed Porsche Carrera GT is still just a road car. If Ferrari has made as much of a pig's ear out of it as it made out of the F50, then it may be okay, but it seems that this time they've got their sums right.
Ferrari (yes, I'm saying Ferrari and not Maserati...) has already shown its hand a little too early - the car was blindingly fast at its first proper test - so the engineers are backtracking already by saying the 575 "would be almost as fast under the same conditions".
We all know what happened to GT racing last time cars like this were allowed in. I really hope that the FIA and M. Ratel are strong enough not to bow to manufacturer pressure this time round.
Yes, it undoubtedly looks the part, but I really hope it's restricted to the point where it's uncompetitive. It isn't a GTS: it isn't even a supercar. It's an Enzo in a low-drag body which has been developed as a pure racecar, which essentially makes it a GT1 car in my eyes. Even that fabulous new V10, pushrod suspended, carbon-tubbed Porsche Carrera GT is still just a road car. If Ferrari has made as much of a pig's ear out of it as it made out of the F50, then it may be okay, but it seems that this time they've got their sums right.
Ferrari (yes, I'm saying Ferrari and not Maserati...) has already shown its hand a little too early - the car was blindingly fast at its first proper test - so the engineers are backtracking already by saying the 575 "would be almost as fast under the same conditions".
We all know what happened to GT racing last time cars like this were allowed in. I really hope that the FIA and M. Ratel are strong enough not to bow to manufacturer pressure this time round.
Personally I feel that the car is within the spirit of the rules. If cars like the Lister and Saleen are allowed to race in FIA GT then I dont see a reason as to why the Maserati cant either, oh and btw so far the Maserati has only gone 5 tenths faster than that of the Ferrari 575 has managed, and the 575 set its time a while back, so who knows the 575 might be able to go even quicker. The Maserati may well be the class of the field yes, but this year Ratel has introduced a new ballast system for FIA GT, with the maximum weight going up from 100kg to 150kg, no matter how good this car is I cant see it beating other cars in its class if its carrying 150kg of ballast when the other cars are carrying what, maybe 30kg on average. The Maserati will be a homlogated sportscar very very soon, meeting the requirements needed to race in the FIA GT series as well as the LMES and ALMS so I really dont see the problem. All Maserati have done is upped the level of competition, why should they be penalised for doing that? If the car is within the rules then surley there cant be a issue with it, Ive heard it compared to the Bentley, the Bentley!? Its nothing like the Bentley in terms of the levels of downforce it creates, its not a GTP its a GTS car. If u want examples of "homlogation specials" then look no further than the Saleen S7R and Lister Storm, the Maserati is certainly not a homlogation special. If anyone here really thinks the Maserati is that fast check for yourselves, visit the offical maserati site, quite easy to find using google, oh and for what its worth its lapping at the same speed as the Ferrari 333sp has managed (so far).
SALEEN S7R said:
Personally I feel that the car is within the spirit of the rules. If cars like the Lister and Saleen are allowed to race in FIA GT then I dont see a reason as to why the Maserati cant either, oh and btw so far the Maserati has only gone 5 tenths faster than that of the Ferrari 575 has managed, and the 575 set its time a while back, so who knows the 575 might be able to go even quicker. The Maserati may well be the class of the field yes, but this year Ratel has introduced a new ballast system for FIA GT, with the maximum weight going up from 100kg to 150kg, no matter how good this car is I cant see it beating other cars in its class if its carrying 150kg of ballast when the other cars are carrying what, maybe 30kg on average. The Maserati will be a homlogated sportscar very very soon, meeting the requirements needed to race in the FIA GT series as well as the LMES and ALMS so I really dont see the problem. All Maserati have done is upped the level of competition, why should they be penalised for doing that? If the car is within the rules then surley there cant be a issue with it, Ive heard it compared to the Bentley, the Bentley!? Its nothing like the Bentley in terms of the levels of downforce it creates, its not a GTP its a GTS car. If u want examples of "homlogation specials" then look no further than the Saleen S7R and Lister Storm, the Maserati is certainly not a homlogation special. If anyone here really thinks the Maserati is that fast check for yourselves, visit the offical maserati site, quite easy to find using google, oh and for what its worth its lapping at the same speed as the Ferrari 333sp has managed (so far).
A few points:
The Saleens have been very heavily restricted over the past couple of seasons, becuase it is not fully homologated. The Lister Storm is a 10 year old car and began racing nine years ago, so it can hardly be called a homologation special.
As Graham has pointed out, if the MCC is lapping at Ferrari 333sp pace, it is going to wipe the floor with everything in FIA GT and win races by several laps. It's a GT1 car. It is a racing car first and a road car second. This is exactly the thing Mr. Ratel said he DIDN'T want, because it will destroy the category again. As I've said in the DSC forum, if Ratel has an effective policing system in place to prevent cars like this from running away with races and the championship, then I'm all for the car running in FIA GT. But the air restrictor formula hasn't worked, and the success ballast formula doesn't make a huge difference either.
I beleive it should be run as a GTP car (it wouldn't take that much work) in the ALMS and LMES. It would give Ferrari/Maserati much more publicity, and would be more popular with fans. Instead of destroying the sport of GT racing it would add to the prototype ranks.
Just my two penneth
Sorry but the Lister Storm that we see racing this year is very differnt from the old GT1 class machine that last raced in what, 1997? The car has undergone extensive modifcations between 2000 and 2004, get the 2000 spec machine and get the 2004 spec car beside it and there are a few obvious differnces Im sure. As for the Saleen yes Im aware its been heavily restricted, in the ALMS that is. In FIA GT last year the car was allowed to run without any ballast penalties or air restrictors, what it did have to do though was run in a sub class of the GT class for Supercars, meaning that there was less modifcations allowed compared to regular GT class cars, but as the car is really a racing car anyway it dosent really have a huge impact on the cars performance.
Oh and btw, so far the Maserati has only managed to lap around 4 tenths faster than the lead 575 time, and lets face it the Maserati has been doing a lot more testing during recent months, and as I understand it the 575 time was set quite a while back. Oh and Graham someone has posted lap times of the Ferrari 333sp on another forum, its best time being a 1:11.990, the Maserati's a 1.11.833, so not a huge differnce, and lets not forget that the Ferrari 333sp is now a old machine. The Maserati wont be allowed to dominate, thats what ballast penalties are for. Does anyone here really beleive that the Maserati will beat the JMB 575's if its carrying 150kg of ballast and the JMB machines are carrying say 30kg? The Maserati is only 4 tenths faster at the moment as it is, so Im afraid I dont see the Maserati winning.
The Maserati being a GT1 car? Have u actually compared it to a REAL GT1 car like the Toyota GT1? The Toyota would absoultley wipe the floor with it, sure the Maserati has moved the goal posts, but no more than the Viper did when it first entered in FIA GT. U want to think the Maserati will dominate? No more than the Oreca Vipers did in 1999 thats for sure winning all 10 rounds, or than in 2003 with BMS winning 7 out of 10 rounds. But has that killed off the championship? No, in fact 2004 looks like being one of the strongest years ever. Still lets just wait and see what happens, but personally I beleive in Ratel, he knows what hes doing, and Im sure I read a interview with him a while back saying that he wanted cars like the Maserati in the championship...
Oh and btw, so far the Maserati has only managed to lap around 4 tenths faster than the lead 575 time, and lets face it the Maserati has been doing a lot more testing during recent months, and as I understand it the 575 time was set quite a while back. Oh and Graham someone has posted lap times of the Ferrari 333sp on another forum, its best time being a 1:11.990, the Maserati's a 1.11.833, so not a huge differnce, and lets not forget that the Ferrari 333sp is now a old machine. The Maserati wont be allowed to dominate, thats what ballast penalties are for. Does anyone here really beleive that the Maserati will beat the JMB 575's if its carrying 150kg of ballast and the JMB machines are carrying say 30kg? The Maserati is only 4 tenths faster at the moment as it is, so Im afraid I dont see the Maserati winning.
The Maserati being a GT1 car? Have u actually compared it to a REAL GT1 car like the Toyota GT1? The Toyota would absoultley wipe the floor with it, sure the Maserati has moved the goal posts, but no more than the Viper did when it first entered in FIA GT. U want to think the Maserati will dominate? No more than the Oreca Vipers did in 1999 thats for sure winning all 10 rounds, or than in 2003 with BMS winning 7 out of 10 rounds. But has that killed off the championship? No, in fact 2004 looks like being one of the strongest years ever. Still lets just wait and see what happens, but personally I beleive in Ratel, he knows what hes doing, and Im sure I read a interview with him a while back saying that he wanted cars like the Maserati in the championship...
If, as Ferrari has done, you take an Enzo, change all the suspension mounting points for re-homologation purposes and clothe it in a long-nose, long-tail body that takes the rules to the limit, then you have created a homologation special. They only need to build 25 for pity's sake! Of course it's not as extreme as the Toyota GT-One, but it's heading in that direction.
A 'supercar' is something like the Zonda, the Murcielago, the Carrera GT or the original McLaren F1 - a powerful mid-engined road car that looks great and costs a considerable amount of money. Quite often a vehicle of this type needs a lot of work to turn it into a racecar and the results may not be as good as expected - the recent form of the Zonda is a fine example of this. What Ferrari has done is create a racecar out of the Enzo - without any real restrictions - then started to homologate it as a Maserati. Fundamentally it is making a car in the same way as the GT1 cars were made - race before road. This is not right. If it doesn't wipe the floor with everything then serious questions need to be asked of Ferrari's engineers!
Yes, one could argue - with some justification - that the Saleen was built to a similar agenda, but it was built to different rules that demanded steel spaceframes or monocoques. The TVR Cerbera 12 was built in the same way. Neither vehicle achieved the necessary homologation in their early years, though, and neither was built to the huge budget that Ferrari has. When full-size car companies start knocking out purpose-built GT cars like the Maserati, we should all start to worry.
The Lister is a different case. Originally, that was a four-seat road car - a supercar, if you will - and it was subsequently modified for racing. Okay, not many were built, but it was made in the spirit of the rules. Yes, it was a GT1 in '96, but then so was the Viper and both stepped down a class thanks to a homologation loophole. That's really all there is to it. If Mr Pearce was merely creating a racecar in the first place he wouldn't have given the Storm rear seats and such a massive frontal area, would he?!
The introduction of carbon-tubbed cars to the FIA series should have just allowed the latest generation of expensive supercars into the series - Zonda, Carrera et al. If Ferrari had allowed the Enzo in I don't think anyone would complain - its pace would be compromised a little by having such short overhangs (like Zonda), but at least it would be within the spirit of the rules.
You could argue that Ferrari is merely doing what Porsche used to do in the '70s (hmm, and '90s...), but the rules are supposed to have been tightened not to allow that sort of thing anymore.
So what's going to be next? A '97 McLaren-esque limited edition long-tail, low-drag wide-track Pagani? A 'super' Murcielago?
Once again, the can is open and the worms are on the move.
Steve @ Eclipse.
Edited to stick my name on it.
>> Edited by Ahonen on Saturday 7th February 15:10
A 'supercar' is something like the Zonda, the Murcielago, the Carrera GT or the original McLaren F1 - a powerful mid-engined road car that looks great and costs a considerable amount of money. Quite often a vehicle of this type needs a lot of work to turn it into a racecar and the results may not be as good as expected - the recent form of the Zonda is a fine example of this. What Ferrari has done is create a racecar out of the Enzo - without any real restrictions - then started to homologate it as a Maserati. Fundamentally it is making a car in the same way as the GT1 cars were made - race before road. This is not right. If it doesn't wipe the floor with everything then serious questions need to be asked of Ferrari's engineers!
Yes, one could argue - with some justification - that the Saleen was built to a similar agenda, but it was built to different rules that demanded steel spaceframes or monocoques. The TVR Cerbera 12 was built in the same way. Neither vehicle achieved the necessary homologation in their early years, though, and neither was built to the huge budget that Ferrari has. When full-size car companies start knocking out purpose-built GT cars like the Maserati, we should all start to worry.
The Lister is a different case. Originally, that was a four-seat road car - a supercar, if you will - and it was subsequently modified for racing. Okay, not many were built, but it was made in the spirit of the rules. Yes, it was a GT1 in '96, but then so was the Viper and both stepped down a class thanks to a homologation loophole. That's really all there is to it. If Mr Pearce was merely creating a racecar in the first place he wouldn't have given the Storm rear seats and such a massive frontal area, would he?!
The introduction of carbon-tubbed cars to the FIA series should have just allowed the latest generation of expensive supercars into the series - Zonda, Carrera et al. If Ferrari had allowed the Enzo in I don't think anyone would complain - its pace would be compromised a little by having such short overhangs (like Zonda), but at least it would be within the spirit of the rules.
You could argue that Ferrari is merely doing what Porsche used to do in the '70s (hmm, and '90s...), but the rules are supposed to have been tightened not to allow that sort of thing anymore.
So what's going to be next? A '97 McLaren-esque limited edition long-tail, low-drag wide-track Pagani? A 'super' Murcielago?
Once again, the can is open and the worms are on the move.
Steve @ Eclipse.
Edited to stick my name on it.
>> Edited by Ahonen on Saturday 7th February 15:10
exactlySALEEN S7R said:
Sorry but the Lister Storm that we see racing this year is very differnt from the old GT1 class machine that last raced in what, 1997? The car has undergone extensive modifcations between 2000 and 2004, get the 2000 spec machine and get the 2004 spec car beside it and there are a few obvious differnces Im sure. As for the Saleen yes Im aware its been heavily restricted, in the ALMS that is. In FIA GT last year the car was allowed to run without any ballast penalties or air restrictors, what it did have to do though was run in a sub class of the GT class for Supercars, meaning that there was less modifcations allowed compared to regular GT class cars, but as the car is really a racing car anyway it dosent really have a huge impact on the cars performance.
The Lister is rather diffent now, yes, but re-homologation of certain parts is allowed every 2 years. It must be remembered that the car was unused in '97/'98 while Lister concentrated on the carbon GTL.
With regard to the Saleen, you've rather proved my point. If you're not allowed to modify your existing car enough to make it competitive, what would you do? If you were a major manufacturer you'd make all the modifications needed to make it quick (and then some), take the opporutunity to slap a better body on it, call it a new name a turf out 25 of them! Bingo. A homologation special.
McLaren never tried to pretend that the long-tail F1 was an 'exciting new road car' and Ferrari is taking the p*ss rather by expecting us to believe it.
All in my opinion only, of course.
[quote] With regard to the Saleen, you've rather proved my point. If you're not allowed to modify your existing car enough to make it competitive, what would you do? If you were a major manufacturer you'd make all the modifications needed to make it quick (and then some), take the opporutunity to slap a better body on it, call it a new name a turf out 25 of them! Bingo. A homologation special.
McLaren never tried to pretend that the long-tail F1 was an 'exciting new road car' and Ferrari is taking the p*ss rather by expecting us to believe it.
All in my opinion only, of course.[/quote]
I wonder, out of intrest will your opinon change if Maserati do produce say 100 or even 200 of the Maserati MCC's? The car is due to be launched at the Geneva International motor show, so hopefully we will hear more about Maserati's plans.
I can see the problem u have regarding the car as being a homlogation special if Maserati only produce 25 road examples of this car, Id feel the same way. But if Maserati do produce 100 or 200 road versions of this car then I really dont see there being a problem with it. I guess we will have to wait and see what Maseratis plans are...
McLaren never tried to pretend that the long-tail F1 was an 'exciting new road car' and Ferrari is taking the p*ss rather by expecting us to believe it.
All in my opinion only, of course.[/quote]
I wonder, out of intrest will your opinon change if Maserati do produce say 100 or even 200 of the Maserati MCC's? The car is due to be launched at the Geneva International motor show, so hopefully we will hear more about Maserati's plans.
I can see the problem u have regarding the car as being a homlogation special if Maserati only produce 25 road examples of this car, Id feel the same way. But if Maserati do produce 100 or 200 road versions of this car then I really dont see there being a problem with it. I guess we will have to wait and see what Maseratis plans are...
Even if they do and the car does dominate it still escalates the investment required to compete for race wins in FIA GT by a staggering amount - It needs a VERY careful hand on the tiller to prevent this from balooning (again!) into the crazy budgets of the late 90s
Don't get me wrong, the car looks stunning but if it's this quick this soon with the times they are actually letting us see so far (and remember they're in control of that info.) then I'd say the outlook is bleak for anyone running anything other than a 2003 spec car to ven see which way they went - A fair number of competitive cars will rapidly become also rans.
Don't get me wrong, the car looks stunning but if it's this quick this soon with the times they are actually letting us see so far (and remember they're in control of that info.) then I'd say the outlook is bleak for anyone running anything other than a 2003 spec car to ven see which way they went - A fair number of competitive cars will rapidly become also rans.
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