Prison population 'should be cut' by third...
Discussion
NismoGT said:
mcdjl said:
Jail fewer people for motoring offences....easy.
Deport any foreign nationals inside to. Oh wait bloody EU Human rights charter.Edited by Hedders on Thursday 14th January 10:44
My opinion is that the problem is deeper and harder to solve than just stopping imprisoning certain groups and increasing prison spaces.
To my mind the problem begins with people committing relatively serious crimes and only being given community penalties. This does little to deter future offending and the pattern continues until the only choice is to send people to prison for a decent chunk of time, clogging up the system.
Once in prison, little is done to provide offenders with the tools to keep out of crime once released. For example, many people in prison cannot read or write, have no qualifications and there is a serious drugs problem. And when I say drugs problem, I mean they were imprisoned not for having or selling drugs, but for the crimes they commit trying to pay for them.
If first time offenders committing offences serious enough for prison were actually sent there first time, it would be a short, very sharp shock. Once in prison, if education/skills learning was made mandatory, as was cold turey on drugs, prisoners would be released with a much better chance of finding gainful employment.
In fact, instead of spending on unnecessary pen pushers, the Government could put ex-cons to good use by employing them to work on the roads/parks & gardens instead of spending £millions on PFI initiatives that make private company profits and Council Tax expensive.
To my mind the problem begins with people committing relatively serious crimes and only being given community penalties. This does little to deter future offending and the pattern continues until the only choice is to send people to prison for a decent chunk of time, clogging up the system.
Once in prison, little is done to provide offenders with the tools to keep out of crime once released. For example, many people in prison cannot read or write, have no qualifications and there is a serious drugs problem. And when I say drugs problem, I mean they were imprisoned not for having or selling drugs, but for the crimes they commit trying to pay for them.
If first time offenders committing offences serious enough for prison were actually sent there first time, it would be a short, very sharp shock. Once in prison, if education/skills learning was made mandatory, as was cold turey on drugs, prisoners would be released with a much better chance of finding gainful employment.
In fact, instead of spending on unnecessary pen pushers, the Government could put ex-cons to good use by employing them to work on the roads/parks & gardens instead of spending £millions on PFI initiatives that make private company profits and Council Tax expensive.
ACPO and Civitas - iirc it was Civitas - have looked at the number of hardcore repeat offenders who commit the large majority of serious crimes in this country. They cannot be jailed as they should be because there is not enough space in our overcrowded jails. To (actually) reduce crime and improve the quality of life for law-abiding members of society, the number of prison places and occupied places at that needs to be increased.
Guam said:
turbobloke said:
ACPO and Civitas - iirc it was Civitas - have looked at the number of hardcore repeat offenders who commit the large majority of crimes in this country. They cannot be jailed as they should be because there is not enough space in our overcrowded jails. To (actually) reduce crime and improve the quality of life for law-abiding members of society, the number of prison places and occupied places at that needs to be increased.
You should know better than to let facts and common sense get in the way of Left wing idealogue b
ks though TB 
turbobloke said:
ACPO and Civitas - iirc it was Civitas - have looked at the number of hardcore repeat offenders who commit the large majority of serious crimes in this country. They cannot be jailed as they should be because there is not enough space in our overcrowded jails. To (actually) reduce crime and improve the quality of life for law-abiding members of society, the number of prison places and occupied places at that needs to be increased.
One of the key problems is the available space in each category of prison, rather than spaces per se.There has been an increase in the number of prisoners categorised A, B and C in line with the increase in the prison population as a whole, meaning there have become pressure points in the system. IPP sentences have only made this problem more severe.
Rather than building new, very expensive prisons, one answer has been to convert existing catagory D space into higher catagory space to meet requirements. For example, Wealstun D in West Yorkshire is being converted into a B/C category.
Don said:
Outsource it then. Send the moderate offenders to Thailand. The open prison guys are harmless and you want to keep an eye on the dangerous ones.
Crazy idea...but we outsource some crazy st nowadays
edit Allow the homeowner to take the burden off of gaols and imprison/keep any caught burglar as a lackey/slave
Edited by Halb on Thursday 14th January 11:22
Guam said:
10 Pence Short said:
turbobloke said:
ACPO and Civitas - iirc it was Civitas - have looked at the number of hardcore repeat offenders who commit the large majority of serious crimes in this country. They cannot be jailed as they should be because there is not enough space in our overcrowded jails. To (actually) reduce crime and improve the quality of life for law-abiding members of society, the number of prison places and occupied places at that needs to be increased.
One of the key problems is the available space in each category of prison, rather than spaces per se.There has been an increase in the number of prisoners categorised A, B and C in line with the increase in the prison population as a whole, meaning there have become pressure points in the system. IPP sentences have only made this problem more severe.
Rather than building new, very expensive prisons, one answer has been to convert existing catagory D space into higher catagory space to meet requirements. For example, Wealstun D in West Yorkshire is being converted into a B/C category.
I'm all for locking up whoever deserves it, but only if by doing so we're treating the causes rather than the symptoms, which has always been the opposite way around under Labour.
Guam said:
Sorry 10PS thats where you and I part company we have had a couple of decades of the "social causes" of crime nonsense and it doesnt work.
The US have managed to significantly REDUCE crime rates during the recession apparrently (counter to recieved wisdom) their approach just lock the buggers up seems to be working.
Ours clearly is NOT!
I would venture that the MAJORITY of the population wants to see "Punishment" for crimes mean something NOT handholding and tea and sympathy!
Cheers
I don't think we do part ways at all. Despite my past I'm certainly no less right wing on the issue than I ever was. If someone deserves locking up, lock them up at the first opportunity rather than fanny about with toothless community punishments. Get the message out there that commit an imprisonable offence and the chances are you will go to prison.The US have managed to significantly REDUCE crime rates during the recession apparrently (counter to recieved wisdom) their approach just lock the buggers up seems to be working.
Ours clearly is NOT!
I would venture that the MAJORITY of the population wants to see "Punishment" for crimes mean something NOT handholding and tea and sympathy!
Cheers
What I think would be unwise, would be to commit £billions to a program of prison building when the existing system is not using the facilities it has. Changes can and are being made in the short term to increase capacity, changes now need to be made to sentencing and how prisoners are rehabilitated and in the long term we need to change the country to lessen the causes of people offending.
12 years of New Labour has shown what happens when you open the chequebook without thinking first, I hardly think that's how a new Government should act from day 1.
Guam said:
Why do we need to change the country to stop thieving scroates stealing other peoples stuff I came from a true slum (along with many others) back in the day I didnt go on the Blag nor did most of my contemporaries, if you did go on the blag you did serious time, what is wrong with that conceptually??
The country is stuffed as it is with the nanny state attitude of current politicians just what is wrong with the concept of personal responsibility, you always took responsibility personally (something I greatly admire as you know) I see no problem with expecting the same of others?
Cheers
Stop arguing for the sake of it!The country is stuffed as it is with the nanny state attitude of current politicians just what is wrong with the concept of personal responsibility, you always took responsibility personally (something I greatly admire as you know) I see no problem with expecting the same of others?
Cheers
We're agreeing that more people should see prison and when they should see it. We're just disagreeing on how much money needs to be spent to achieve it.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
There is (or was in summer 2007) plenty of Cat D capacity, just not enough of the higher categories.In Wealstun D there were whole wings of 50+ cells capable of handling 100 prisoners each standing more or less empty. The prison was being used as an overflow from the Cat C prisons locally for prisoners in the last 6 weeks or so of their sentences, almost irrespective of their actual risk status.
By converting places like that to Cat C there is still going to be capacity in Cat Ds, but better use of the assets already in place.
By all means build more prisons, but only once the existing system is being properly used, rather than abused for political gain.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I agree entirely with you- the guidelines should say 'stomp down the offenders throat at first opportunity', not 'keep out of prison at all costs'. Fortunately Judges are far less tied to namby sentencing than the Mags are.As for prison places, if there isn't capacity nearby, prisoners aren't located close to home. On the day of my sentencing, they didn't know where I would be going until about 4pm that afternoon due to capacity problems at Durham (the nearest dispersal prison to Carlisle). When in Wealstun I met a guy from Manchester who was taken to Hull dispersal because there was nothing closer. How bad is that? Prison, and Hull.
I often cringe when these topics come up, solely because generally there is so much misinformation and lack of knowledge out there from which people base opinions. There are many, many problems with the Justice system from front to back, for which the solutions are often a sea change in political influence rather than throwing tax payers cash at it.
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