RE: Car Design
Thursday 6th July 2000
Car Design
They don't make them like they used to...
Discussion
Ted, I have to dissagree totally.
Sex and car disign have to go together it's true, but where you and I differ is that the straight lines of the Mid to Late '70s and early '80s were fabulous! Cars such as my own Lotus Elite, the Esprit's before Stephens ruined them, even the wedgey TVR's are all classic bird pullers. They ooze swarve sophistication, You can keep the recent batch of non descript, rounded blobs that are being churned out at the present. Thogh I do agree about the MK3 MR2, the MK2 was a lovely looking machine, so alike the Lotus Europa don't you think?! As is the Honda CRX?! Mr Chapman was way ahead of his time wasn't He?!
Sex and car disign have to go together it's true, but where you and I differ is that the straight lines of the Mid to Late '70s and early '80s were fabulous! Cars such as my own Lotus Elite, the Esprit's before Stephens ruined them, even the wedgey TVR's are all classic bird pullers. They ooze swarve sophistication, You can keep the recent batch of non descript, rounded blobs that are being churned out at the present. Thogh I do agree about the MK3 MR2, the MK2 was a lovely looking machine, so alike the Lotus Europa don't you think?! As is the Honda CRX?! Mr Chapman was way ahead of his time wasn't He?!
Will someone please tell me what sex has got to do with car design? If you pick up a pencil and draw/doodle your perfect car are you really thinking about sex? Rubbish! Womens libbers' snide jibes about sex and long bonnets? Total rubbish!
If people need that sort of crap to relate to sex they need a double dose of Viagra and a hormone injection to go with it.
Today's cars and concept cars? Dull or downright hideous. There's only one stunner and it's called an Aston Martin Vanquish.
Pretty good efforts, plus fitness for purpose? XKR, Alfa GTV, Lotus Exige, TVR Tamora, Citroen's Rally Xsara, New Mini, and one or two others (perhaps).
Other end of the scale? Anything Japanese (talk about losing your way....), Merc (all bells and whistles), Porsche (only Porsche could get away with it), Cerbera (a cerebral haemorrhage), BMW's latest stuff (they'll sell like hotcakes, of course) etc. etc.
Yours truly, (I've gone into hiding), McNab.
If people need that sort of crap to relate to sex they need a double dose of Viagra and a hormone injection to go with it.
Today's cars and concept cars? Dull or downright hideous. There's only one stunner and it's called an Aston Martin Vanquish.
Pretty good efforts, plus fitness for purpose? XKR, Alfa GTV, Lotus Exige, TVR Tamora, Citroen's Rally Xsara, New Mini, and one or two others (perhaps).
Other end of the scale? Anything Japanese (talk about losing your way....), Merc (all bells and whistles), Porsche (only Porsche could get away with it), Cerbera (a cerebral haemorrhage), BMW's latest stuff (they'll sell like hotcakes, of course) etc. etc.
Yours truly, (I've gone into hiding), McNab.
I have to agree with McNab on ALL points. Certainly there are a large segment that equate car ownership with the ability to attract a mate. Or who look at vehicles as the "love of their lives" after not having found an acceptable flesh and blood companion, therefore settling for the mechanical sort.
However, I think that there is ample opportunity to lay the blame for lackluster sports cars directly at the doorstep of the manufacturers. The problem with most manufacturers is that if they don't sell 100,000 copies of a given vehicle per year, they deem it a failure. In order to do that, in my opinion, they take a design and try to modify it to attract the maximum number of buyers. Case in point in the US is the recent introduction of the next generation Viper. Chrysler rolled out an awesome display of automotive art with the GTS concept Viper and then gave us a convertible only toned down excuse for a roadster. The reason they did that, was to push more units. I was actually considering a 2003 Viper until that monstrosity was shown in Detroit.
We all know what we like when we see it. Unfortunately the closest parallel description of that feeling is sexual or religious. But it is something more. The car needs to look like it is doing 200, while standing still. It needs to say, "Okay chum, how fast do you want to take that corner up there - I'm game..". The engine noise has to equate to an automotive "Ride Of The Valkyries" and the interior has to feel like we have been ensconced, once again in our mother's womb.
Why is this car not being built? Because of the 100,000 units that need to be moved, there are at least 90,000 consumers out there that would complain about fuel economy, lack of luggage space and the cramped cockpit. Can a vehicle like this be built? Absolutely. I don't think Lotus has ever had a problem moving its 300 or so odd units a year. Auto companies just need to remember that target market and redefine the segment. After they do it, the 10,000 or so consumers that really want these vehicle will find the money (Kid's college funds, second mortgage on house, hold up a bank, etc) to buy them, so they can charge what they will. Like McNab, I also am looking forward to the new Jag. However, I am a bit apprehensive about what corporate expediency will force them to do to that wonderful concept.
IMHO
ErnestM
"Waiting patiently across the pond..."
PS: Why do I like the Esprit? Because it is a refined English gentleman dressed in an Italian suit
>> Edited by ErnestM on Sunday 24th March 15:21
However, I think that there is ample opportunity to lay the blame for lackluster sports cars directly at the doorstep of the manufacturers. The problem with most manufacturers is that if they don't sell 100,000 copies of a given vehicle per year, they deem it a failure. In order to do that, in my opinion, they take a design and try to modify it to attract the maximum number of buyers. Case in point in the US is the recent introduction of the next generation Viper. Chrysler rolled out an awesome display of automotive art with the GTS concept Viper and then gave us a convertible only toned down excuse for a roadster. The reason they did that, was to push more units. I was actually considering a 2003 Viper until that monstrosity was shown in Detroit.
We all know what we like when we see it. Unfortunately the closest parallel description of that feeling is sexual or religious. But it is something more. The car needs to look like it is doing 200, while standing still. It needs to say, "Okay chum, how fast do you want to take that corner up there - I'm game..". The engine noise has to equate to an automotive "Ride Of The Valkyries" and the interior has to feel like we have been ensconced, once again in our mother's womb.
Why is this car not being built? Because of the 100,000 units that need to be moved, there are at least 90,000 consumers out there that would complain about fuel economy, lack of luggage space and the cramped cockpit. Can a vehicle like this be built? Absolutely. I don't think Lotus has ever had a problem moving its 300 or so odd units a year. Auto companies just need to remember that target market and redefine the segment. After they do it, the 10,000 or so consumers that really want these vehicle will find the money (Kid's college funds, second mortgage on house, hold up a bank, etc) to buy them, so they can charge what they will. Like McNab, I also am looking forward to the new Jag. However, I am a bit apprehensive about what corporate expediency will force them to do to that wonderful concept.
IMHO
ErnestM
"Waiting patiently across the pond..."
PS: Why do I like the Esprit? Because it is a refined English gentleman dressed in an Italian suit
>> Edited by ErnestM on Sunday 24th March 15:21
quote:
Most car designers I would imagine are male, right?
In this day and age, most car designers are silicon integrated circuits
quote:
Males like fast cars because Females like fast cars!
Genetically, females are naturally drawn to a mate that can best provide for them and their offspring. Therefore, we males believe that females are drawn to sports cars. They are actually drawn to the ability to BUY what they perceive to be an EXPENSIVE car. The "S Class" Mercedes (while admittedly not a sow's ear), will draw as many, if not more. It's the perception of wealth that is the draw.
Also, beware of the types that are drawn to you because of your car. If that is the sole reason, don't be surprised if somewhere along the line you are "convinced" to sell it. (After all, they don't want any others drawn to you, now do they?)
IMHO, the best girl for a pistonhead is one that knows nothing about cars and simply loves you as a man and cares about your happiness. I was lucky enough to find one of those. She actually suggested that I by the Esprit after we had one child and she was eight months into carrying our second. I quote:
"You work so hard, you should buy whatever car makes you happy..."
I'm happy...
ErnestM
Come on Simon - whose leg are you going to pull next! Were you really thinking of food and sex when you bought your Lotus?
Colin Chapman may have been thinking about where his next meal was coming from when he designed the original Elite, but that's the only connection I can think of!
Lucky guy Ernest, and quite right too...
Colin Chapman may have been thinking about where his next meal was coming from when he designed the original Elite, but that's the only connection I can think of!
Lucky guy Ernest, and quite right too...
OK Boys, you got me. Although I do think that Sex has it's place in the field of car sales, I also think that a little "Devil's Advocasy" (not sure of the spelling,sorry) can brighten up a rather dull sunday. By the way, Sex was far from my mind when I bought my Lotus, but Desire, there's another story!
I discussed this very topic with my missus this afternoon! - she reckons men are pathetic! all this "mines faster/bigger/corners better than yours" is all immature macho clap-trap....
Hmm, I'll have to ask a few more women their REAL opinion ! but if this is anything like representative, then the "flash car" syndrome is gonna die out.
For the record, I value comfort and handling higher than outright performance in cars now. Seeing as I spend 10 hours a week commuting to work, and a lot of that on Gatso infested M11.. it makes my 75 horse 206 a little *over powered* for the task !!
The flip side of the coin, I went east on Saturday, and covered 250 miles having the time of my life. You four-wheelers can also find b-road heaven if you look for it !
C
Hmm, I'll have to ask a few more women their REAL opinion ! but if this is anything like representative, then the "flash car" syndrome is gonna die out.
For the record, I value comfort and handling higher than outright performance in cars now. Seeing as I spend 10 hours a week commuting to work, and a lot of that on Gatso infested M11.. it makes my 75 horse 206 a little *over powered* for the task !!
The flip side of the coin, I went east on Saturday, and covered 250 miles having the time of my life. You four-wheelers can also find b-road heaven if you look for it !
C
Hertsbiker...
What does your wife say about "flash bikes"?
Seem to recall you are the proud owner of a new one...
I think that those of us that really enjoy driving (be it bikes or cars) are always going to want performance that pushes the envelope. It's the adrenaline rush that we like. Some people climb rocks. Some people fly planes (or jump out of them). Some people even get thier kicks by knocking silly little white balls into holes. We (all of us) like the bleeding edge performance of our motor vehicles.
I doesn't have anything to do with sexual attraction (IMHO) it has to do with endorphins. We enjoy it...
By the way, you are right about "B" roads, even here in the states. I have been out and about in the backroads of my sleepy little burgh most of the day today. I actual found an enclined corner on a one lane per side road (about 20 degrees) where some silly road planner stuck a 55 mile per hour sign... Who was I to argue... Breaks? we don't need no stinkin' breaks... Life is grand (tried to get some video today to show you guys that the US isn't all interstate, but it did not turn out well. Will mount the camera better next time.. stay tuned)
ErnestM
What does your wife say about "flash bikes"?
Seem to recall you are the proud owner of a new one... I think that those of us that really enjoy driving (be it bikes or cars) are always going to want performance that pushes the envelope. It's the adrenaline rush that we like. Some people climb rocks. Some people fly planes (or jump out of them). Some people even get thier kicks by knocking silly little white balls into holes. We (all of us) like the bleeding edge performance of our motor vehicles.
I doesn't have anything to do with sexual attraction (IMHO) it has to do with endorphins. We enjoy it...
By the way, you are right about "B" roads, even here in the states. I have been out and about in the backroads of my sleepy little burgh most of the day today. I actual found an enclined corner on a one lane per side road (about 20 degrees) where some silly road planner stuck a 55 mile per hour sign... Who was I to argue... Breaks? we don't need no stinkin' breaks... Life is grand (tried to get some video today to show you guys that the US isn't all interstate, but it did not turn out well. Will mount the camera better next time.. stay tuned)
ErnestM
Ahh car design, or more acurately styling, if sex apeal is one of the requirements . It has been said many times (though not here perhaps ) that the ultimate Virility Symbol is a people carrier full of Britax chairs. How about combining sexy curves AND loads of kiddie seats , yes my friends may I present one of my all time favorite cars the Multipla , a cathartic meeting of Design and Styling, ugly as sin and don't give a damn. but fantastic details ooooze class , If you disagree, you aint sat in one...
go on shoot me down
go on shoot me down
McNab
...Again, we agree. I was just about to mention a lot of the cars (concepts) that you mentioned. I would have included the M250 from Lotus as pretty stunning. I would have also expanded on the fact that the Japanese haven't (IMHO) done anything well since the Supra or 3000GT days...(The last were two fabulous vehicles that had enormous potential going forward, but were summarily dropped, probably due to the 100,000 unit thing that I mentioned earlier. Too bad for us...)
ErnestM
...Again, we agree. I was just about to mention a lot of the cars (concepts) that you mentioned. I would have included the M250 from Lotus as pretty stunning. I would have also expanded on the fact that the Japanese haven't (IMHO) done anything well since the Supra or 3000GT days...(The last were two fabulous vehicles that had enormous potential going forward, but were summarily dropped, probably due to the 100,000 unit thing that I mentioned earlier. Too bad for us...)
ErnestM
I agree with Farmer, I like the Multipla, as a car design it is so ugly it almost seems attractive and the interior is very well designed (the limo taxi firms use them in Paris) and thought out.
It's not to everyones taste - but how often do we berate manufacturers for not being adventurous with car design? At least this is an example of a concept carried through to production - and at a price that makes it attractive to people needing six seats.
I guess that most of us think of curvy / sleek sportscars when we are asked to think good design examples - but they usually do not have the space required for a family.
Cheers,
JSG.
It's not to everyones taste - but how often do we berate manufacturers for not being adventurous with car design? At least this is an example of a concept carried through to production - and at a price that makes it attractive to people needing six seats.
I guess that most of us think of curvy / sleek sportscars when we are asked to think good design examples - but they usually do not have the space required for a family.
Cheers,
JSG.
quote:
quote:
Most car designers I would imagine are male, right?
In this day and age, most car designers are silicon integrated circuitsquote:
Males like fast cars because Females like fast cars!
Genetically, females are naturally drawn to a mate that can best provide for them and their offspring. Therefore, we males believe that females are drawn to sports cars. They are actually drawn to the ability to BUY what they perceive to be an EXPENSIVE car. The "S Class" Mercedes (while admittedly not a sow's ear), will draw as many, if not more. It's the perception of wealth that is the draw.
I am most definatly not a silicon circut. I do use pencils and pens. All cars are not dull and yes it is a damm sight harder to make ordinary cars desirable.
I should know, I am a car designer at Volvo.
You would not belive how much effort goes into designing every detail of a car, althrough i'll admit on some cars that effort is hard to see!! The average car interior has over 500 different components each of which will have hours poured over every radius and surface right down to the texture however small.
yes most car designers are men. Most colour and trim designers are women.
your perception of women is about right!! except that it is the ability to provide (shoes mostly) drawn from wealth they find attractive.
you are wrong about the s-class merc. it is a sows ear. it's fussy, cluttered and overdesigned. for well designed read audi a8. for well expensive and flash (albeit well made, but not as well as the audi) see merc s-class. and yes i driven and studied both.
Mark.
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