Griff/Chim limit handling

[Chris71]

Got into a bit of a debate on another area of the site about the Griffith/Chimaera. I know that some examples can be a bit tricky to drive in extremis, but I'd always put that down to the wrong choices of rubber, geometry, spring and damper rates, and so on. That and innexperienced drivers relying on non-existent driving aids.

I can't help thinking that with adjustable geometry, double wishbones all round, modest weight and a low-ish centre of gravity you'd be hard pushed to go wrong. However I'm told by an ex-owner that no ammount of tinkering would make his handle properly and he insists that they're fundamentally tricky and unpredictable - even by the standards of short wheelbase 300+bhp cars with no traction control.

So what do you reckon? We all know they're not cars to be trifled with, but are they fundamentally difficult? I've only driven the V8s at fast-ish road pace, so not really in a position to comment about the ragged edge. Curious to see if they really are that demanding or if it's the product of a disgruntled and opinionated mind.

[LordGrover]

I joined a TVRCC driver training day a couple of years ago, on an airfield.
Some of the exercises were designed to lose control so that we learnt how to regain control. It was surprisingly difficult, even hammering down at 60-80mph to a sharp right hander to try to get it to spin out or slide - mine stuck to the road like glue, as did most others. Partly a lack of bottle on my part I'll admit but it was reassuring how secure it felt.

[Guillotine]

you'd be amazed how good a well set up Griff/chim is.

as good as a boxter s easy (but more exciting) and everyone raves about them.

Your friends car was not set up well...or just did not like the feel. some don't.

Griff/chims are basically an RV8 Tuscan challenge car with trim. excellent handling when set up/driven well!

Andy

[Mark UB]

Chris71 said:

However I'm told by an ex-owner that no ammount of tinkering would make his handle properly and he insists that they're fundamentally tricky and unpredictable

A griff can be made to handle very well, factory settings aren't the best though.

You need decent dampers (Nitrons/Ohlins) stiffer springs (standard spring rates are to soft)
Decent tyres (R888) (for track)
Proper set up by someone who knows what they are doing (Ian from TVR)

All that will come to about 2.5k and it's worth every penny and then you've got a car that's as quick as a standard Sag through the bends.

Edited by Mark UB on Monday 11th January 16:19

[Chris71]

Guillotine said:

Griff/chims are basically an RV8 Tuscan challenge car with trim. excellent handling when set up/driven well!

This is actually part of the logic he used. He reckoned a mate was a race engineer for Tuscans (using a similar chassis) and said they were the trickiest cars he'd encountered.

I know the V6 S' chassis doesn't have quite the same forces to deal with, but I was amazed how good mine was once I'd spent a bit of time playing around with suspension and geometry. It's not as sharp or as nimble, but it was as predictable and arguably more forgiving than my current Caterham.

[Mark_S_24]

I drove my Mates Chim 400 at Abingdon during the summer (Which is why I own one now)
And I've driven mine at Knockhill
and I'd say there was no problem with getting them round the bends etc.
Plenty of feed back, and enough grunt to get it sideways round the Hairpin
(although I would like bigger brakes now :-) )

Sound more like he had one with some issues?

Mark

[900T-R]

Chris71 said:

Guillotine said:

Griff/chims are basically an RV8 Tuscan challenge car with trim. excellent handling when set up/driven well!

This is actually part of the logic he used. He reckoned a mate was a race engineer for Tuscans (using a similar chassis) and said they were the trickiest cars he'd encountered.

Nothing to do with them being the most over-powered and under-tyred racing cars ever to hit UK venues, then?

[Chris71]

Mark_S_24 said:

Sound more like he had one with some issues?

That's my personal take on the situation too, but he strongly denies it. The guy does seem relatively clued up and he's owned plenty of interesting machinery, buit he's also quite, er, fixed in his own beliefs shall we say.

I suspect there are a lot of TVRs going round with less than ideal suspension setups. Mine seemed okay on the road from the word go, but it was only after a lot of tinkering and plenty of track time that I got it handling the way I wanted. I mentioned this and he pointed out that, on paper, a Griffith 500 has twice the power, a lot more torque and much thicker tyres.

Nonetheless, his acersion that a relatively light, reasonably balanced, low slung, front-engined RWD car fundamentally cannot be made to handle acceptably seems almost contrary to the laws of physics.

[900T-R]

Have asked Henk Thuis of Intrax straight whether there's inherent issue with the Chimaera and Griffith's suspension geometry that would prevent the car from ever handling properly. He says there isn't - reiterated that he felt mine was pretty damn good by any standards; said he didn't 'go mad' in it but still had a good stab at exploring its on-limit behaviour and found it very stable, poised and 'four square' - but that is one of those cars that very few people in the business can set them up properly. Quite a few of them ending up at his place. He's also had a good few horrors in his workshop; cars that were worse than the set up they came with from the factory. Given from the way he 'discusses' things and tries to belittle and ridicule the findings of others if they don't aling with his I feel he might be one of those folks that have a bit too high ajn opinion of themselves - if they can't make it work, surely no one can and it must be an inherent, fundamental fault.

Now I know - Thuis sells suspension kits for a living. But I know him well enough to know he's not a bullsh*tter and I find it less hard to believe someone everyone knows and stands for his work - not to mention him having been responsible for the set up of Schueys Benetton in the '94 and '95 seasons among other things, and being the reigning Dutch Supercar Challenge Supersport class champion in a 997 Porsche - than a self-professed 'expert' who refuses to give his own credentials, or those of the folks he mentions that he says agree with him.

Edited by 900T-R on Monday 11th January 18:17

[griffdude]

Chris71 said:

Mark_S_24 said:

Sound more like he had one with some issues?

That's my personal take on the situation too, but he strongly denies it. The guy does seem relatively clued up and he's owned plenty of interesting machinery, buit he's also quite, er, fixed in his own beliefs shall we say.

I suspect there are a lot of TVRs going round with less than ideal suspension setups. Mine seemed okay on the road from the word go, but it was only after a lot of tinkering and plenty of track time that I got it handling the way I wanted. I mentioned this and he pointed out that, on paper, a Griffith 500 has twice the power, a lot more torque and much thicker tyres.

Nonetheless, his acersion that a relatively light, reasonably balanced, low slung, front-engined RWD car fundamentally cannot be made to handle acceptably seems almost contrary to the laws of physics.

If you look how far back in the chassis the engine is mounted, it's almost a front/mid engined arrangement. As the above say, with a few tweeks they handle pretty well, which are predictable & balanced on the limit. I pretty much always get positive comments on trackdays from people supprised at how well the car goes thru the twisties.

[Chris71]

900T-R said:

Have asked Henk Thuis of Intrax straight whether there's inherent issue with the Chimaera and Griffith's suspension geometry that would prevent the car from ever handling properly. He says there isn't.

I think I'll go with Mr Thuis' opinion.

For the record, Sam was wittering on about a fundamentally flawed roll centre location, but seems weight transfer about the roll centre is partially dictated by the spring and ARB rates (and there's only so far wrong you can go with RC location on double wishbones - itself affected by ride height setup) I'm going to assume he's talking out of his arse.

[wintrader]

900T-R said:

Have asked Henk Thuis of Intrax straight whether there's inherent issue with the Chimaera and Griffith's suspension geometry that would prevent the car from ever handling properly. He says there isn't - reiterated that he felt mine was pretty damn good by any standards; said he didn't 'go mad' in it but still had a good stab at exploring its on-limit behaviour and found it very stable, poised and 'four square' - but that is one of those cars that very few people in the business can set them up properly. Quite a few of them ending up at his place. He's also had a good few horrors in his workshop; cars that were worse than the set up they came with from the factory. Given from the way he 'discusses' things and tries to belittle and ridicule the findings of others if they don't aling with his I feel he might be one of those folks that have a bit too high ajn opinion of themselves - if they can't make it work, surely no one can and it must be an inherent, fundamental fault.

Now I know - Thuis sells suspension kits for a living. But I know him well enough to know he's not a bullsh*tter and I find it less hard to believe someone everyone knows and stands for his work - not to mention him having been responsible for the set up of Schueys Benetton in the '94 and '95 seasons among other things, and being the reigning Dutch Supercar Challenge Supersport class champion in a 997 Porsche - than a self-professed 'expert' who refuses to give his own credentials, or those of the folks he mentions that he says agree with him.

Edited by 900T-R on Monday 11th January 18:17

Also got intrax shocks. My brother in law also uses them for his racing cars. Handling can be reasonable ok but all must be ok. Like all bushes and stabi rubbers. The problem is that these items wear out quick and that worsens the handling. Stabi rubbers are ford items and better buy the poly ones they are much stronger. I use shocks with rose joints because the silent blocks cant bear the presure due to the angle too long. You need rose joints. The handling is ok but not in same league as let's say my ferrari 308 vetroresina GTB. I think the car stays bit tricky. In long corners not that stable. Straight line stability now very good with the intrax shocks. When i bought the car the handling was very dangerous because the, perhaps wrong english, wirings of the springs touched and this caused some kind of lock up. Basic chassis set up is kinda ok my brother told me. Perhaps i am going to strengthen the triangles for more stability. By the way the rose joints make a little bit noise but still reasonable comfortable. Also good thing is to make heatshields to prevent the shocks from warming up too much. The exhaust manifolds warms the shocks too much.

The problem is a bit that is the cars starts to slide you have to be very fast to correct it. What we did is use rain setup so that front bit softer then rear. Will experiment a bit more in summer and perhaps give henk Thuis a visit to see what he thinks.

[BliarOut]

Properly set up they can definitely handle, improperly set up they're a fight bloody handful Mine will understeer well before the back end breaks traction as I wanted something more forgiving for the road.

[wintrader]

Yeah with the rain set up i also want the car to understeer first. For more forgiving roadhandling. Friend of mine who is races cars goes fast in every car and also mine. I do not know how he does it but he does it. When i asked him about the handling he said it is ok but the car moves a little under braking. I never had this problem he has.

I can only say that i feel more relaxed in my 308 in corners then my griff. But then again i am not a racing driver. Perhaps see it like this a bit. My ducati must be a great cornering machine for really good drivers. I noticed that i am faster on a yamaha r1 because for slower drivers it is easier to ride.

[900T-R]

wintrader said:

Also got intrax shocks. My brother in law also uses them for his racing cars. Handling can be reasonable ok but all must be ok. Like all bushes and stabi rubbers. The problem is that these items wear out quick and that worsens the handling. Stabi rubbers are ford items and better buy the poly ones they are much stronger. I use shocks with rose joints because the silent blocks cant bear the presure due to the angle too long. You need rose joints. The handling is ok but not in same league as let's say my ferrari 308 vetroresina GTB. I think the car stays bit tricky. In long corners not that stable. Straight line stability now very good with the intrax shocks. When i bought the car the handling was very dangerous because the, perhaps wrong english, wirings of the springs touched and this caused some kind of lock up. Basic chassis set up is kinda ok my brother told me. Perhaps i am going to strengthen the triangles for more stability. By the way the rose joints make a little bit noise but still reasonable comfortable. Also good thing is to make heatshields to prevent the shocks from warming up too much. The exhaust manifolds warms the shocks too much.

The problem is a bit that is the cars starts to slide you have to be very fast to correct it. What we did is use rain setup so that front bit softer then rear. Will experiment a bit more in summer and perhaps give henk Thuis a visit to see what he thinks.

Yeah, that all checks with my findings. My car runs on relatively soft front springs too which helps making it stable and relatively forgiving - eventually it will understeer. Am keeping with the std relatively high aspect ratio tyres and wheel sizes too (incidentally, the OZ split rims are about a kg lighter than the standard cast Imolas & Estorils).
It's OK on long Autobahn curves compared to other cars (the way the steering loads up on my non-PAS car does make it feel like it will understeer out of the bend at some point), but it feels far more at home on country roads. Underbonnet temps on a Chimaera are not as bad as on a Griff, but having no cats does help keep the shocks cooler (although the Intrax' are thermostatically controlled and thus less susceptible to heat) and bushes etc intact for a bit longer . Rose-jointed ARB droplinks a must IMO. Have agreed with Henk that I'll drop by sometime soon and we'll assess & sort all the little things to get the car spot on.

Edited by 900T-R on Monday 11th January 19:59

[900T-R]

griffdude said:

If you look how far back in the chassis the engine is mounted, it's almost a front/mid engined arrangement.

Technically, it actually is - all of the engine is behind the front axle line.

[900T-R]

Chris71 said:

For the record, Sam was wittering on about a fundamentally flawed roll centre location, but seems weight transfer about the roll centre is partially dictated by the spring and ARB rates (and there's only so far wrong you can go with RC location on double wishbones - itself affected by ride height setup)

Glad I'm not the only one who didn't quite get what he was wittering on about - I believe the above is correct.

[wintrader]

Rose-jointed ARB droplinks a must IMO.

What is that??? What is a droplink? I mean where the shocks are attached to the chassis. Standard there are silent blocks in your shock but i got rose joints. Is that a arb rose joint droplink? Funny all this.

[900T-R]

wintrader said:

Rose-jointed ARB droplinks a must IMO.

What is that??? What is a droplink? I mean where the shocks are attached to the chassis. Standard there are silent blocks in your shock but i got rose joints. Is that a arb rose joint droplink? Funny all this.

No, that's the shocks and being Intrax they come with rose joints top and bottom.

What I meant is this (blatant plug, sorry):

http://www.wolfdirectracing.nl/joomla/index.php?op...nderstel&Itemid=2

These link the anti-roll bars to the wishbones and are installed with top and bottom rubber bushes on Griffs and Chimaeras (and early Cerberas as well). Due to these restricting the articulation of the droplinks they tend to wear out rather quickly, and don't 'engage' the anti-roll bar properly. What happens is that the car rolls and nothing happens, then the roll bar 'comes in' rather suddendly, leading to a 'twitch' from the rear (sorry for the decidedly non-technical explanation). At the front the same phenomenon tends to make the turn-in a bit soft and imprecise.

BTW especially with early models the droplink brackets on thw wishbones are too weak, leading to tears in the fatigued metal. On mine, one rear droplink didn't do a lot anymore but flex the weakened bracket at some point. Strengthened weld-on replacements are available from TVR/Multipart for twenty euro something, or from SC Power.

[roysum]

Guillotine said:

you'd be amazed how good a well set up Griff/chim is.

as good as a boxter s easy (but more exciting) and everyone raves about them.

Your friends car was not set up well...or just did not like the feel. some don't.

Griff/chims are basically an RV8 Tuscan challenge car with trim. excellent handling when set up/driven well!

Andy

This is quite encouraging, having driven my Chimaera and my son's Boxter I felt the tiv's handling was desperate in comparison. I was going to suggest you must be having a chuckle Andy, till I read your profile !
I have since poly bushed and intend to go for some Racing Reds and a geo set up with Neil Garner.
So I'm looking fwd to a transformed car !!

Roy.