The Killing of the TSR2
Discussion
On R4 after the Archers.
Never heard of this - worth a listen.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pl1gx
Never heard of this - worth a listen.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pl1gx
Missed that, but did see that the ( Duke, I think ) video is on Youtube.
Part 1 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqQ9iLvWV1s
Part 1 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqQ9iLvWV1s
There's a blast from the past!
When I joined English Electric as an apprentice in 1966, my very first job was cutting up for scrap the jigs and fixtures, for TSR2, as they were completed and signed off by the MOD.
f
king Labour Government. Had no more idea then than they have now. Bunch of morons.
When I joined English Electric as an apprentice in 1966, my very first job was cutting up for scrap the jigs and fixtures, for TSR2, as they were completed and signed off by the MOD.
f
king Labour Government. Had no more idea then than they have now. Bunch of morons.Edited by DSM2 on Sunday 10th January 16:22
DSM2 said:
There's a blast from the past!
When I joined English Electric as an apprentice in 1966, my very first job was cutting up for scrap the jigs and fixtures, for TSR2, as they were completed and signed off by the MOD.
fking Labour Government. Had no more idea then than they have now. Bunch of morons.
Great to hear from someone "who was there".When I joined English Electric as an apprentice in 1966, my very first job was cutting up for scrap the jigs and fixtures, for TSR2, as they were completed and signed off by the MOD.
f
king Labour Government. Had no more idea then than they have now. Bunch of morons.Edited by DSM2 on Sunday 10th January 16:22
What effect did the scrapping of the TSR2 have on the workforce. Were they angry? Demoralised?
skyslimit said:
We'll I doubt they would be breaking out the bunting, don't you? 
There's no need to be so rude. I'm sure they weren't overjoyed - but I assume, you, like me, have only heard such stories second hand.
I thought this would be a golden opportunity to hear what it was like from someone who was actually there.
I've only ever read second hand accounts from aviation writers and TV documentary makers.
Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 10th January 19:05
Eric Mc said:
skyslimit said:
We'll I doubt they would be breaking out the bunting, don't you?
There's no need to be so rude. I'm sure they weren't overjoyed - but I assume, you, like me, have only heard such stories second hand.
I thought this would be a golden opportunity to hear what it was like from someone who was actually there.
I've only ever read second hand accounts from aviation writers and TV documentary makers.
Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 10th January 19:05
You asked a question that would get a newcomer flayed, and I asked, honestly, what did you think the reaction would be?
Did you think it would be somehow the opposite of despair and frustration?
Before I sodded off to train as an ATPL, I both worked for the government and made things with my hands. I KNOW how utterly frustrating and heartbreaing it is to watch a project you've put blood, sweat, tears, late nights and a relationship down the sewer for, only for a Government who haven't got a blody clue to pull the rug out from under it.
You think I was being rude? I think you were asking a bloody silly question.
Horses for courses then.
skyslimit said:
Eric Mc said:
skyslimit said:
We'll I doubt they would be breaking out the bunting, don't you?
There's no need to be so rude. I'm sure they weren't overjoyed - but I assume, you, like me, have only heard such stories second hand.
I thought this would be a golden opportunity to hear what it was like from someone who was actually there.
I've only ever read second hand accounts from aviation writers and TV documentary makers.
Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 10th January 19:05
dr_gn said:
skyslimit said:
Eric Mc said:
skyslimit said:
We'll I doubt they would be breaking out the bunting, don't you?
There's no need to be so rude. I'm sure they weren't overjoyed - but I assume, you, like me, have only heard such stories second hand.
I thought this would be a golden opportunity to hear what it was like from someone who was actually there.
I've only ever read second hand accounts from aviation writers and TV documentary makers.
Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 10th January 19:05
Edited by Eric Mc on Monday 11th January 08:45
Was actually watching something on the TSR2 last night, before I saw this. From what I've heard/seen/read, it would have embarrased every other plane in the sky, including the F111, so to keep international relations with America happy, it was killed off. There is no other explanation for the destruction of all the machinery and tooling for the aircraft other than someone never wanted to see it fly again.
Pity, I reckon it'd have still been in service in some form or another today......not many planes can leave a Lightning standing using only one afterburner...
Pity, I reckon it'd have still been in service in some form or another today......not many planes can leave a Lightning standing using only one afterburner...
There were lots of factors at work which brought about its demise -
The Cost
It was going to be HUGELY expensive. The RAF thought it would be the last manned combat aircraft they would ever operate. As a result, they tried to specify a mission capability that would see it into the 1990s at least. It was really pushing the edge of what could be done at the time, especially regarding the avionics.
In addition, the country was also virtually bankrupt in 1965 (nothing changes
). The Treasury were fighting to cut costs wherever they could. Large defence projects were high on their target list.
Inter-Service Rivalry
The Navy were fighting for funding of two nuclear powered aircraft carriers and the aircraft that they would operate off them. They knew that the UK probably couldn't afford the TSR2 and the carriers. They tried to undermine the worth of the TSR2 at every opportunity and had an influential champion in the form of Lord Louis Mountbatten. He was instrumental in ensuring that the Royal Australian Air Force chose the F-111 over the TSR2. Ironically, the super carriers were cancelled too - so nobody won.
Pressure from the US
The US aircraft industry was wary of the capability of the TSR2 and lobbied hard to get both the UK and Australia to buy F-111s instead. In the end, their view was crucial. The TSR2 was cancelled and the F111 ordered by both countries. As we all know, the RAF later cancelled their F-111 order.
The Cost
It was going to be HUGELY expensive. The RAF thought it would be the last manned combat aircraft they would ever operate. As a result, they tried to specify a mission capability that would see it into the 1990s at least. It was really pushing the edge of what could be done at the time, especially regarding the avionics.
In addition, the country was also virtually bankrupt in 1965 (nothing changes
). The Treasury were fighting to cut costs wherever they could. Large defence projects were high on their target list.Inter-Service Rivalry
The Navy were fighting for funding of two nuclear powered aircraft carriers and the aircraft that they would operate off them. They knew that the UK probably couldn't afford the TSR2 and the carriers. They tried to undermine the worth of the TSR2 at every opportunity and had an influential champion in the form of Lord Louis Mountbatten. He was instrumental in ensuring that the Royal Australian Air Force chose the F-111 over the TSR2. Ironically, the super carriers were cancelled too - so nobody won.
Pressure from the US
The US aircraft industry was wary of the capability of the TSR2 and lobbied hard to get both the UK and Australia to buy F-111s instead. In the end, their view was crucial. The TSR2 was cancelled and the F111 ordered by both countries. As we all know, the RAF later cancelled their F-111 order.
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