BBC Tornado programme

[roryfizz]

Pretty interesting programme on the BBC. If only interesting as an excuse to watch tornados fly around for half an hour!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00plwdk/Torn...

[eccles]

That was a blast from the past, seeing ZA404, the first ever photo recce Tornado. Worked on it many times and good to see it still flying.

[statts1976uk]

Is it real Tornadoes like what I worked on at Lossie or the gay fighters?

[eccles]

proper mud movers.

[Mojocvh]

statts1976uk said:

Is it real Tornadoes like what I worked on at Lossie or the gay fighters?

Well young man, having maintained tornadoes of both UK and foreign varieties for over 21 years before retirement (I like that bit!), I have to correct you on the "gay" call there!!

[roryfizz]

As there seem to be more knowing people on here than me, was the F3 really such a bad interceptor as lots of people make out? It had highish endurance didn't it, so good for standing off against Russian bombers (its main threat) and its lack to dogfighting performance was due to it never being envisaged as a dogfighter?

thanks

Rory

[Boozy]

Can anyone point to where I can watch it outside of the UK?

[hidetheelephants]

roryfizz said:

As there seem to be more knowing people on here than me, was the F3 really such a bad interceptor as lots of people make out? It had highish endurance didn't it, so good for standing off against Russian bombers (its main threat) and its lack to dogfighting performance was due to it never being envisaged as a dogfighter?

thanks

Rory

As you point out, it's an interceptor; it's raison d'etre is being vectored at the bogies by the controller, launching missiles at them BVR(Beyond Visual Range) and returning home for tea and medals. ACM(air combat maneuvering) did not and does not enter into the equation; I would assume the grand RAF plan in the event of the red peril pouring through the Fulda gap was to keep all that vulgarity over the battlefield, and leave it to the Yanks/Boxheads/Belgians with their F15s and F16s. We would have had quite enough on our plate keeping the baddies under control in UKADGE(UK Air Defence Ground Environment) without sending airframes to Germany. Also I think the Skyflash(AIM7 Sparrow hotrodded by BAE) compensated for any shortcomings(real or perceived) the ADV(Air Defence Variant) may have had(concrete radars excepted...)

In ACM, the Lightning would have it for breakfast, but sadly had pisspoor loiter time and never got the development it deserved(courtesy of Sandys' 1957 defence hatchet job)

editted for yuckspeak; apologies.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Thursday 31st December 18:58

[knight]

Boozy said:

Can anyone point to where I can watch it outside of the UK?

Well if you click on the link you can watch it anywhere as it's on the BBC iplayer

[Eric Mc]

Not all iPlayer programmes are available to computer users outside the UK.

[knight]

Eric Mc said:

Not all iPlayer programmes are available to computer users outside the UK.

Is that a fact! Well you learn something new everyday

[ccr32]

hidetheelephants said:

As you point out, it's an interceptor; it's raison d'etre is being vectored at the bogies by the controller, launching missiles at them BVR and returning home for tea and medals. ACM did not and does not enter into the equation; I would assume the grand RAF plan in the event of the red peril pouring through the Fulda gap was to keep all that vulgarity over the battlefield, and leave it to the Yanks/Boxheads/Belgians with their F15s and F16s. We would have had quite enough on our plate keeping the baddies under control in UKADGE without sending airframes to Germany. Also I think the Skyflash compensated for any shortcomings(real or perceived) the ADV may have had(concrete radars excepted...)

In ACM, the Lightning would have it for breakfast, but sadly had pisspoor loiter time and never got the development it deserved(courtesy of Sandys' 1957 defence hatchet job)

Apologies if this seems a bit dense, but could you fill me in on the abbreviations used here please? Not familiar with some of the terms used...

Thanks!

[Eric Mc]

ccr32 said:

hidetheelephants said:

As you point out, it's an interceptor; it's raison d'etre is being vectored at the bogies by the controller, launching missiles at them BVR and returning home for tea and medals. ACM did not and does not enter into the equation; I would assume the grand RAF plan in the event of the red peril pouring through the Fulda gap was to keep all that vulgarity over the battlefield, and leave it to the Yanks/Boxheads/Belgians with their F15s and F16s. We would have had quite enough on our plate keeping the baddies under control in UKADGE without sending airframes to Germany. Also I think the Skyflash compensated for any shortcomings(real or perceived) the ADV may have had(concrete radars excepted...)

In ACM, the Lightning would have it for breakfast, but sadly had pisspoor loiter time and never got the development it deserved(courtesy of Sandys' 1957 defence hatchet job)

Apologies if this seems a bit dense, but could you fill me in on the abbreviations used here please? Not familiar with some of the terms used...

Thanks!

ADV - Air Defence Variant

When PANAVIA designed the fighter version of the Tornado (which was originally designed as a ground attack aircraft), they referred to it as the ADV. In RAF service it was referred to as the F2 (initial version) or F3 (fully operational version).

ACM - AIr Combat Mode (?)

Dogfighting.

[telecat]

Eric Mc said:

ccr32 said:

hidetheelephants said:

As you point out, it's an interceptor; it's raison d'etre is being vectored at the bogies by the controller, launching missiles at them BVR and returning home for tea and medals. ACM did not and does not enter into the equation; I would assume the grand RAF plan in the event of the red peril pouring through the Fulda gap was to keep all that vulgarity over the battlefield, and leave it to the Yanks/Boxheads/Belgians with their F15s and F16s. We would have had quite enough on our plate keeping the baddies under control in UKADGE without sending airframes to Germany. Also I think the Skyflash compensated for any shortcomings(real or perceived) the ADV may have had(concrete radars excepted...)

In ACM, the Lightning would have it for breakfast, but sadly had pisspoor loiter time and never got the development it deserved(courtesy of Sandys' 1957 defence hatchet job)

Apologies if this seems a bit dense, but could you fill me in on the abbreviations used here please? Not familiar with some of the terms used...

Thanks!

ADV - Air Defence Variant

When PANAVIA designed the fighter version of the Tornado (which was originally designed as a ground attack aircraft), they referred to it as the ADV. In RAF service it was referred to as the F2 (initial version) or F3 (fully operational version).

ACM - AIr Combat Mode (?)

Dogfighting.

BVR Beyond Visual Range.

UKADGE United Kingdom Air Defence Ground Environment.

Edited by telecat on Thursday 31st December 12:24

[eccles]

Eric Mc said:

ccr32 said:

hidetheelephants said:

As you point out, it's an interceptor; it's raison d'etre is being vectored at the bogies by the controller, launching missiles at them BVR and returning home for tea and medals. ACM did not and does not enter into the equation; I would assume the grand RAF plan in the event of the red peril pouring through the Fulda gap was to keep all that vulgarity over the battlefield, and leave it to the Yanks/Boxheads/Belgians with their F15s and F16s. We would have had quite enough on our plate keeping the baddies under control in UKADGE without sending airframes to Germany. Also I think the Skyflash compensated for any shortcomings(real or perceived) the ADV may have had(concrete radars excepted...)

In ACM, the Lightning would have it for breakfast, but sadly had pisspoor loiter time and never got the development it deserved(courtesy of Sandys' 1957 defence hatchet job)

Apologies if this seems a bit dense, but could you fill me in on the abbreviations used here please? Not familiar with some of the terms used...

Thanks!

ADV - Air Defence Variant

When PANAVIA designed the fighter version of the Tornado (which was originally designed as a ground attack aircraft), they referred to it as the ADV. In RAF service it was referred to as the F2 (initial version) or F3 (fully operational version).

ACM - AIr Combat Mode (?)

Dogfighting.

ACM - Air Combat Maneuvering

[texasjohn]

I didnt work 'on' them as such, but I did work at Panavia for a while in 2000.

Will have to have a look for this programme, thanks for the heads up.

Edited by texasjohn on Sunday 3rd January 16:00

[hidetheelephants]

eccles said:

Eric Mc said:

ccr32 said:

hidetheelephants said:

As you point out, it's an interceptor; it's raison d'etre is being vectored at the bogies by the controller, launching missiles at them BVR and returning home for tea and medals. ACM did not and does not enter into the equation; I would assume the grand RAF plan in the event of the red peril pouring through the Fulda gap was to keep all that vulgarity over the battlefield, and leave it to the Yanks/Boxheads/Belgians with their F15s and F16s. We would have had quite enough on our plate keeping the baddies under control in UKADGE without sending airframes to Germany. Also I think the Skyflash compensated for any shortcomings(real or perceived) the ADV may have had(concrete radars excepted...)

In ACM, the Lightning would have it for breakfast, but sadly had pisspoor loiter time and never got the development it deserved(courtesy of Sandys' 1957 defence hatchet job)

Apologies if this seems a bit dense, but could you fill me in on the abbreviations used here please? Not familiar with some of the terms used...

Thanks!

ADV - Air Defence Variant

When PANAVIA designed the fighter version of the Tornado (which was originally designed as a ground attack aircraft), they referred to it as the ADV. In RAF service it was referred to as the F2 (initial version) or F3 (fully operational version).

ACM - Air Combat Maneuvering

Three letter acronyms as above. Sorry about that - I failed to engage the yuckspeak translator; does Uncle Roger still do his page in Flight International?

[ccr32]

thanks for the translations - now makes some sense to me!

[aeropilot]

roryfizz said:

As there seem to be more knowing people on here than me, was the F3 really such a bad interceptor as lots of people make out? It had highish endurance didn't it, so good for standing off against Russian bombers (its main threat) and its lack to dogfighting performance was due to it never being envisaged as a dogfighter?

It was designed as a very fast at low level strike/attack aircraft, so in it's air defence F.3 version, it's great if the any attacking bomber hoards come in at sea level.....but it's at higher altitude that the F.3 then struggles - badly.

[Eric Mc]

I watched this last night. It was nice to see a decent "tecchie" programme on aircraft for a change. It took me back to the old days of Raymond Baxter.
Pity it was hidden away on the News Channel.