Power OFF slide?
Discussion
We are all sad when we read threads such as "1 less Sagaris" (though happy no serious injury). Of course this is not the first time that we read of a write-off, I remember in particular reading about a Griffith write-off Le Mans bound in heavy rain. Having had a tail-end slide or two and reading these reports, I do wonder if there is a cause in "big engine, lots of reverse torque on lift-off, light car, rear wheels lock". It is so easy to do this when roads are slippery, it is instinct to let your foot off the right pedal. Any thoughts?
in my 2 years of ownership, having read that they really can bite, i decided to make sure i drove the car in all weathers (except snow) and push it to the point of going just so i know what to look for, yes your instinct is to lift off but after much f
g about in the wet 
i learned not to lift off but to ease off therefore keeping throttle control, i think this helped me a lot just recently on a very wet motorway. lifting off on a bend is a big 
in most cars
ETA during my moment i was being sensible and i put it down to the car being so light
g about in the wet i learned not to lift off but to ease off therefore keeping throttle control, i think this helped me a lot just recently on a very wet motorway. lifting off on a bend is a big in most carsETA during my moment i was being sensible and i put it down to the car being so light
Edited by x 7usc on Sunday 27th December 11:18
Get them set up...get some training...where its safe. On Track!
This done, the cars are perfectly safe/enjoyable.
Over the years I've driven some real shockers. Cars badly set up/faults on them etc and people who have been in mine (on the road and track) are amazed at how docile and forgiving it is. They normally just need a set up.
The embodiment of this was the penultimate race in the challenge. Stay with me, mine is a fully road legal Griff 500. I was lapping with a race Tuscan 2 that had basically not been fully developed. We exited a chicane at oulton at the same speed, kev's snapped on him and he toatalled the car in the wall. He was pushing too hard with a car that was not finished on the set up and even as an experienced racer he couldn't safe her. It'll be back next season.
However, my heavier earlier Griff just drove past.
Don't be scared, don't think it can be done any other way. Get your car to a PROPER specialist and get it set up (there are several and it'll cost around £200 max) and get it to an instruction day. We (TVRmonster) are running a few this year, but there are others, but they don't specialise in TVR and we do have certain issues like the big engine braking!
There's not much wrong with a sorted TVR in the right hands.
Andy
Kind of an advert here, but I have run a TVR for 10+ years, Tracked it...raced it...taken many to tracks all over Europe, and run the TVRCC Trackdays.
This done, the cars are perfectly safe/enjoyable.
Over the years I've driven some real shockers. Cars badly set up/faults on them etc and people who have been in mine (on the road and track) are amazed at how docile and forgiving it is. They normally just need a set up.
The embodiment of this was the penultimate race in the challenge. Stay with me, mine is a fully road legal Griff 500. I was lapping with a race Tuscan 2 that had basically not been fully developed. We exited a chicane at oulton at the same speed, kev's snapped on him and he toatalled the car in the wall. He was pushing too hard with a car that was not finished on the set up and even as an experienced racer he couldn't safe her. It'll be back next season.
However, my heavier earlier Griff just drove past.
Don't be scared, don't think it can be done any other way. Get your car to a PROPER specialist and get it set up (there are several and it'll cost around £200 max) and get it to an instruction day. We (TVRmonster) are running a few this year, but there are others, but they don't specialise in TVR and we do have certain issues like the big engine braking!
There's not much wrong with a sorted TVR in the right hands.
Andy
Kind of an advert here, but I have run a TVR for 10+ years, Tracked it...raced it...taken many to tracks all over Europe, and run the TVRCC Trackdays.
s5tuart said:
Surely if you want to lift off the accelerator mid-bend you are driving too fast, whatever the road conditions??? 
Slow into the corners, fast out of them; works for most people.
Very good advice, but you cant round every bend at what turns out to be the correct speed.Slow into the corners, fast out of them; works for most people.
A kid can run out...a car over your side...an unseen obstacle in the road...or you just don't know how steep the bend is!
Edited by Guillotine on Sunday 27th December 11:46
Guillotine said:
s5tuart said:
Surely if you want to lift off the accelerator mid-bend you are driving too fast, whatever the road conditions???
Slow into the corners, fast out of them; works for most people.
Very good advice, but you cant round every bend at what turns out to be the correct speed.Slow into the corners, fast out of them; works for most people.
A kid can run out...a car over your side...an unseen obstacle in the road...or you just don't know how steep the bend is!
Edited by Guillotine on Sunday 27th December 11:46
I like how to read limit points in corners really good to give you a idea of the bend Severity but as Guillotine said you knows what is round every blind bend could be a lorry on its side for all you know cow poo ect who knows so you have to drive in the knowlage of not having a clue what you can not see and drive Accordingly
Also excellent advice.
Everyone with a TVR should do an IAM course. Starter is only around £60!!!
Good observation giving advanced information is essential for the road/track/racing.
edited to say that nowadays, many have no experience of rwd let alone high power rwd.
All factors.
We actually USE lift off/brake oversteer as legitimate driving techniques and will set the car up for it at certain circuits.
Everyone with a TVR should do an IAM course. Starter is only around £60!!!
Good observation giving advanced information is essential for the road/track/racing.
edited to say that nowadays, many have no experience of rwd let alone high power rwd.
All factors.
We actually USE lift off/brake oversteer as legitimate driving techniques and will set the car up for it at certain circuits.
Edited by Guillotine on Sunday 27th December 14:47
x 7usc said:
in my 2 years of ownership, having read that they really can bite, i decided to make sure i drove the car in all weathers (except snow) and push it to the point of going just so i know what to look for, yes your instinct is to lift off but after much fg about in the wet i learned not to lift off but to ease off therefore keeping throttle control, i think this helped me a lot just recently on a very wet motorway. lifting off on a bend is a big in most cars
ETA during my moment i was being sensible and i put it down to the car being so light
I got in a monster slide on a seemingly dry piece of road yesterday in my Punto. Doing about 50mph round a sweeping right hander, and all of a sudden the back end decided to say hello. I DID lift of, momentarily, flicked the wheel, and put the power back on, and got out of it nicely. I expect it's different in a RWD car? What should I do if this happens in the TVR (which I will be driving much more cautiously). g about in the wet i learned not to lift off but to ease off therefore keeping throttle control, i think this helped me a lot just recently on a very wet motorway. lifting off on a bend is a big in most carsETA during my moment i was being sensible and i put it down to the car being so light
Edited by x 7usc on Sunday 27th December 11:18
Thanks for comments guys, and I see nothing that I do not agree with ... but my comment was nothing to do with tracks, dry or even mildly wet roads, or even corners come to that! If you read the "1 less Sagaris" thread, that was on a very slippery straight road, and it's the other "very wet, but straight" accidents that I had in mind, where I can see that a full lift off the pedal will bring the back around. Could that have caused these horrible write-offs?
not just the tvr's either.before i was into tiv's,i had this happen to me in a westfield,straight piece of road,dampish,45-50mph,back end just instantly flipped round out of the blue.i was lucky as it was a busy dual carriage way in rush hour traffic and still dont know how i didnt hit anything.
when i find myself in a situation where the rear does start to go,i tend to dip the clutch rather than lay off the throttle,find it avoids unsettling the car even more.
when i find myself in a situation where the rear does start to go,i tend to dip the clutch rather than lay off the throttle,find it avoids unsettling the car even more.
had my tuscan a year now, and had her fishtailing on day one. Not intential as had youngest daughter onboard. Decided to have a day on a skid
pan (thanks aquatix) at rockingham, now feel more reassured with handling and what to expect. I would heartily recommend everyone do this.
Its not often you have the chance to take outrageous liberties without risking life limb and NCB.
pan (thanks aquatix) at rockingham, now feel more reassured with handling and what to expect. I would heartily recommend everyone do this.
Its not often you have the chance to take outrageous liberties without risking life limb and NCB.
crispian22 said:
not just the tvr's either.before i was into tiv's,i had this happen to me in a westfield,straight piece of road,dampish,45-50mph,back end just instantly flipped round out of the blue.i was lucky as it was a busy dual carriage way in rush hour traffic and still dont know how i didnt hit anything.
when i find myself in a situation where the rear does start to go,i tend to dip the clutch rather than lay off the throttle,find it avoids unsettling the car even more.
Not just Tiv's, my old capris used to do it. Dipping the clutch is the answer as it removes power to the rear wheels. If you lift off the throttle then you can find it snaps you back the other way.when i find myself in a situation where the rear does start to go,i tend to dip the clutch rather than lay off the throttle,find it avoids unsettling the car even more.
It is remarkable just how much a single course can improve your on-road driving.
The safest thing to have in any car is experience. It is this which lowers accident rates and frequency of 'incidents', but you can shorten the time it takes to gain experience by getting it from others.
The most popular series I ever ran in Sprint was an advanced driving course. It generated loads of feedback and general interest. So the desire is there to improve. And it doesn't cost all that much.
After my first full driving course in the police - five weeks - I asked my wife if she had noticed any difference and she said that I was driving much slower. This despite the fact that I was, in fact, going faster. There were three distinct changes that made me appear to be going slower: I was much smoother, I was slow where it mattered and I was much more observant meaning that things didn't surprise me so I was never forced into violent braking/steering/acceleration. I could push it when it was safe to do so.
Something else it did was to make me much more tolerant of other people's driving. I'm not sure why but I was much more inclined to allow them time to make their mistakes.
I've been drivin around circuits and roads by racing drivers and I have to accept that I'll never be as good as them. However, I know I'm a safe driver despite the fact that I do like to get a move on as I've been assessed by a number of quality police drivers who are not known for their their reluctance to criticse in uncrompromising language.
Driving courses have really helped me to enjoy my driving. I endorse Andy's comments and add one of my own.
The poorest judge of anyone's driving ability is the person themselves.
The safest thing to have in any car is experience. It is this which lowers accident rates and frequency of 'incidents', but you can shorten the time it takes to gain experience by getting it from others.
The most popular series I ever ran in Sprint was an advanced driving course. It generated loads of feedback and general interest. So the desire is there to improve. And it doesn't cost all that much.
After my first full driving course in the police - five weeks - I asked my wife if she had noticed any difference and she said that I was driving much slower. This despite the fact that I was, in fact, going faster. There were three distinct changes that made me appear to be going slower: I was much smoother, I was slow where it mattered and I was much more observant meaning that things didn't surprise me so I was never forced into violent braking/steering/acceleration. I could push it when it was safe to do so.
Something else it did was to make me much more tolerant of other people's driving. I'm not sure why but I was much more inclined to allow them time to make their mistakes.
I've been drivin around circuits and roads by racing drivers and I have to accept that I'll never be as good as them. However, I know I'm a safe driver despite the fact that I do like to get a move on as I've been assessed by a number of quality police drivers who are not known for their their reluctance to criticse in uncrompromising language.
Driving courses have really helped me to enjoy my driving. I endorse Andy's comments and add one of my own.
The poorest judge of anyone's driving ability is the person themselves.
TVR653X said:
x 7usc said:
in my 2 years of ownership, having read that they really can bite, i decided to make sure i drove the car in all weathers (except snow) and push it to the point of going just so i know what to look for, yes your instinct is to lift off but after much fg about in the wet i learned not to lift off but to ease off therefore keeping throttle control, i think this helped me a lot just recently on a very wet motorway. lifting off on a bend is a big in most cars
ETA during my moment i was being sensible and i put it down to the car being so light
I got in a monster slide on a seemingly dry piece of road yesterday in my Punto. Doing about 50mph round a sweeping right hander, and all of a sudden the back end decided to say hello. I DID lift of, momentarily, flicked the wheel, and put the power back on, and got out of it nicely. I expect it's different in a RWD car? What should I do if this happens in the TVR (which I will be driving much more cautiously). g about in the wet i learned not to lift off but to ease off therefore keeping throttle control, i think this helped me a lot just recently on a very wet motorway. lifting off on a bend is a big in most carsETA during my moment i was being sensible and i put it down to the car being so light
Edited by x 7usc on Sunday 27th December 11:18
is absolutly correct and in a TVR all this happens a lot quickermark
I would suggest a Ride Drive day, as there is nothing like spending a day with a Class 1 police driver for improving your Roadcraft techniques.
With regard to the 'power off' debate, I remember talking to Julian of Ride Drive at the last Back Home event (2006?). He told me that your reaction to a slide may be different on the track compared with the road, as with the latter you usually have little space to manoeuvre. As such, the advice on the road is if you start to slide, foot on clutch (to remove power to the rear wheels) and steer out of the slide. On the track you can play around a bit with the throttle.
With regard to the 'power off' debate, I remember talking to Julian of Ride Drive at the last Back Home event (2006?). He told me that your reaction to a slide may be different on the track compared with the road, as with the latter you usually have little space to manoeuvre. As such, the advice on the road is if you start to slide, foot on clutch (to remove power to the rear wheels) and steer out of the slide. On the track you can play around a bit with the throttle.
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