BMW E32 750iL - How hard can it be?
Discussion
Two weeks ago me and a friend were talking about comfortable cars (after deciding that his Silva Drift car and my 205 would be crap on a 200 mile motorway journey), and he brought up that I should consider a 7 Series if I really wanted that wafty feeling. I dare say that I've begun thinking about this a bit, leaning me to think that I'll slightly insane in thinking that I could possibly afford to run one of these beasts on a shoe string budget?
Seriously, if we get over the "Oh my god, 12 cylinders!!!" thing you are left with an engine that is basically two M20 Sixes (I.E, very reliable) welded together sharing the same crank. A bit of research has shown that each bank can operate independently from the other (Which I think is amazing for a 1987 car!). With it pumping out 'only' 300BHP from 5ltrs of displacement and 12 cylinders, it isn't exactly highly sprung, so I'd expect reliability to be 'alright' if I got a decent one?
I have some experience of the slightly more complex M70 unit that came in the E38s and Rolls Royce Sliver Seraph, and to be honest I don't think I've ever seen one come in with engine problems.
Fuel economy isn't really a worry. It'd be a weekend toy.
What about the other electrics in an old 7 series? I don't imagine that they are much more complex that a modern family hatchback, surely?
Finally, the concern is with the driving experience. Is a 7 series really a car that you are driven in, rather than actually drive? I'm imagining an awesomely comfortable car that is happy to waft about 90% of the time, but able to turn into a bit of a beast when the loud pedal is provoked?
You must be thinking that I'm mad, but Come on, how can you NOT want this?
Seriously, if we get over the "Oh my god, 12 cylinders!!!" thing you are left with an engine that is basically two M20 Sixes (I.E, very reliable) welded together sharing the same crank. A bit of research has shown that each bank can operate independently from the other (Which I think is amazing for a 1987 car!). With it pumping out 'only' 300BHP from 5ltrs of displacement and 12 cylinders, it isn't exactly highly sprung, so I'd expect reliability to be 'alright' if I got a decent one?
I have some experience of the slightly more complex M70 unit that came in the E38s and Rolls Royce Sliver Seraph, and to be honest I don't think I've ever seen one come in with engine problems.
Fuel economy isn't really a worry. It'd be a weekend toy.
What about the other electrics in an old 7 series? I don't imagine that they are much more complex that a modern family hatchback, surely?
Finally, the concern is with the driving experience. Is a 7 series really a car that you are driven in, rather than actually drive? I'm imagining an awesomely comfortable car that is happy to waft about 90% of the time, but able to turn into a bit of a beast when the loud pedal is provoked?
You must be thinking that I'm mad, but Come on, how can you NOT want this?
Edited by Simps on Saturday 19th December 01:34
They can handle them-selfs very well and surprise a few people.
Electrics are OK but check all the functions when you purchase as they are NOT a quick fix.
Parts are cheaper than expected.
They are fantastic to drive will all the functions and toys you need.
Although mine was the E38 model I would purchase another one tomorrow without hesitation whatsoever.
Electrics are OK but check all the functions when you purchase as they are NOT a quick fix.
Parts are cheaper than expected.
They are fantastic to drive will all the functions and toys you need.
Although mine was the E38 model I would purchase another one tomorrow without hesitation whatsoever.
Edited by Morningside on Saturday 19th December 00:00
Vixpy1 said:
LHD said:
Spokey said:
Vixpy1 said:
Did I mention the rust?
Pah! You haven't seen rust till you've had a 635.Or an E21.
Looks like a new expansion tank is needed, i've changed the cap to see if that sorts it but when pressure tested nothing leaks.
Bizzare.
I had one of these, back in the day!
Fab things - engines pretty reliable, any problems are usually electric related though.
I had to have the inlet manifold seals replaced on mine, as they had perished and a couple of cyls had a misfire. You couldnt really tell though.
Mine was an Li - the extra length is noticeable, but not too badly so - the standard car is hardly short!
With the full buffalo hide interior and walnut, it was a much nicer place to be in than a 735i.
Great car, and one I would have again.
Fab things - engines pretty reliable, any problems are usually electric related though.
I had to have the inlet manifold seals replaced on mine, as they had perished and a couple of cyls had a misfire. You couldnt really tell though.
Mine was an Li - the extra length is noticeable, but not too badly so - the standard car is hardly short!
With the full buffalo hide interior and walnut, it was a much nicer place to be in than a 735i.
Great car, and one I would have again.
Simps said:
I should consider a 7 Series if I really wanted that wafty feeling.
No - you should be considering a Jaguar XJ or Lexus LS400 for true waftage.Simps said:
I dare say that I've begun thinking about this a bit, leaning me to think that I'll slightly insane in thinking that I could possibly afford to run one of these beasts on a shoe string budget?
Quite correctly - cheap to buy does not equate to cheap to run. It's part of why they're cheap to buy. Basically, if there's a fault, any fault - it's £1k. That's the easiest way to think of it. On th eplus side - there aren't many, these really were built to a standard hitherto unsurpassed. There's just something about cars built/designed/engineered under "West" Germany than just Germany that marks them apart.Simps said:
Seriously, if we get over the "Oh my god, 12 cylinders!!!" thing you are left with an engine that is basically two M20 Sixes (I.E, very reliable) welded together sharing the same crank.
A common enough misconception. They share block spacing and cylinder bore and stroke dimensions. Otherwise they're very much more complex than that. It sounds simple - but have you thought of the level of technical complexity involved in having two engines, capable of running independently on a shared crank? It uses a massively long an dcomplicated chain to do the timing and ancillaries, unlike the rubber cambelt of an M20. There's also bugger all room to work under the engine bay - so anything more involved than changing oil or plugs (not without issues) means the engine and gearbox come out. It's not a small lump... Simps said:
A bit of research has shown that each bank can operate independently from the other (Which I think is amazing for a 1987 car!). With it pumping out 'only' 300BHP from 5ltrs of displacement and 12 cylinders, it isn't exactly highly sprung, so I'd expect reliability to be 'alright' if I got a decent one?
Quite correct - this contributes to relatively impressive fuel economy. I used to have an E32 735i before my current car (see profile) - that returned 21mpg on average in my hands (over 50% motorway cruising). The V12, owing to it's ample torque and interplanetary gearing in top 100mph is just under 3k rpm, peak torque looks a bit high at 4k rpm, but a huge proportion of it is available across the rev range (unlike the sixes or V8s that need revs to deliver) and at 3k it's just building to a peak just over 4k - just over 130mph and pulling hard. The rest are straining at this point. Not that one does that often - but it gives you a good idea of what is "in reserve" at more normal speeds.Generally, reliability is very good. Problems are well documented and often lead back to the mass airflow meters and DK motors (twin electronic throttle actuators - which must be in perfect synchronisation so the two banks aren't actually "fighting" each other - causing unwelcome vibrations and placing strain on the crank bearings. Valve stem seals can also fail - there are 24 of them and they're a bit of a git to do. Even so - a top end overhaul/refresh is far more cost-effective than a bottom end up rebuild. Think potentially five figure bills at present labour rates of suitably able mechanics. Problems can develop with the rearmost two cylinders also, often owing to the fact that lazy technicians don;t bother changing the back two plugs with the other ten as they're a pain to get to. The inherent smoothness of the engine firing on twelve can be used to disguise an engine firing on ten - even on ten it's smoother than a lot of other engines out there. The rearmost two bores can also turn slightly "oval" owing to cooling problems (as they're the furthest from the cooling air coming in at the front of the engine bay and there's 4 feet of engine and exhaust in front of them. The pressurised cooling system does it's best - but can also fail if neglected. Oval bores lose compression and necessitate a bottom end rebuild.
Simps said:
I have some experience of the slightly more complex M70 unit that came in the E38s and Rolls Royce Sliver Seraph, and to be honest I don't think I've ever seen one come in with engine problems.
The M70 B50 (5.0l 300bhp/330lb ft) was the unit used in the E32 (and E31 850i also), the unit in the E38 and Seraph is an M73 B54 (5.4l 326bhp/360lb ft). Problems develop when they ARE run on shoestring budgets. They cost a fair bit to maintain when new - cars don't get cheaper to maintain or more reliable as they age. Maintenance costs are the one aspect of car ownership that doesn't depreciate. Age & mileage reduce the capital value of a car - but it's just as complex twenty years after it was built as it was on day one. Buy one in fine fettle - and you'll be a very happy bunny and they're just so much more special than a V8. It's a difference that can't be quantified on paper or by objective measures. But get in and drive a good one, and you'll know what I mean if you've also tried a "regular" Seven.Simps said:
Fuel economy isn't really a worry. It'd be a weekend toy.
Even so - they're far from as horrendous. Every E32 I've had the pleasure of has returned give or take 19-21 mpg (my last E32 735i has since passed through the hands of a couple of Phers who were both happy with it, the current owner - a fellow trader has spent a bit of money on a few routine things that are par for the course with these old girls, but she still puts a smile on some very dedicated PHer's faces, as does my current one with me and I hope does to whomever ends up taking her off me). A 730i M30 six or M60 V8 feels breathless next to the V12 and it's not like the V8s are unproblematic. The older sixes are pretty bomb-proof, but noticeably less refined - they go back to the late '60s so were an old design in the late '80s. The twelve was state of the art for it's day, just as the current one is. It's a litre bigger, and 66% mor epowerful - yet better on fuel despite a bigger heavier car. Simps said:
What about the other electrics in an old 7 series? I don't imagine that they are much more complex that a modern family hatchback, surely?
Quite simply and without a hint of arrogance - they are. Just pop off a door card. These were the first cars with CANBUS - which led to lots of wonderfully complex possibilities. Check everything works. Parts can be difficult to get hold of - and as befits a flagship car, they were the best BMW could fit at the time, so are suitably expensive now. They make E30s look decidedly Fisher-Price by comparison... Simps said:
Finally, but concern with be the driving experience. Is a 7 series really a car that you are driven in, rather than actually drive? I'm imagining an awesomely comfortable car that is happy to waft about 90% of the time, but able to turn into a bit of a beast when the loud pedal is provoked?
It's a BMW - therefore it's a car built for the driver's enjoyment first. Chauffeurs drove S-Class Mercedes, Jaguars and Lexuses for a reason. Many 750is began their lives as chauffeur cars (certainly the LWB variants) but quite often were bought by the chap who sat in the back and driven themselves as they're more enjoyable that way. They feel like driving two E30 325is - in size, mass and generally neutral handling that gives you plenty of options for enjoying yourself.In ten years o fowning most variants of Seven - they're by far the most "sporty" of the uber-barges. The LWBs marginally less so, they came with higher sidewall tyres and a chassis optimised for comfort. The SWB cars came with the Sport suspension and lower profile (metric) rims and Michelin TRX tyres. Got a quote recently - £329 + VAT per corner. The ride is notably firmer than 7s equipped without that wheel/tyre/self-levelling (switchable from Comfort to Sport) suspension. That in itself is a fairly routine service item. Dampers can only be bought from BMW and the latest was £354 + VAT, each, plus 3 hours labour per corner to sort. There are reasons they cost 50% more than a 740i when new...Simps said:
You must be thinking that I'm mad, but Come on, how can you NOT want this?
Not at all - I wouldn't have bought mine otherwise 
Check my profile/website for the running report so far - there's a bill I haven't had yet from my tame mechanic for a rear suspension bush replacement and rear diff main oil seal as it was weeping slightly. Let the little things slide on these and you can only look forward to disproportionately bigger bills ahead.Now, don't read any of that as desuasion. I make these remarks merely to open your eyes to life with a 750i - or pretty much any bargain barge. Their present retail values are a side-effect of age and the number of potential buyers out their for V12 saloons with what are considered by many as exorbitant running costs. What one needs to bear in mind - is that depreciation is negligible owing to the low purchase price even if you get back £0 for it after a year or two. So you end up spending money on upkeep instead of depreciation. £15k could buy you a new Focus with fair spec that will incur you no expense beyond a couple of hundred £ over three years in servicing and tyres - everything else will be covered by warranty - but come sale time - you'll find around £10k has gone walkies. That buys a LOT of fuel and service bills. Driv eboth and then tell me which you'd rather have on your driveway of a typical day. Both are cars, one is a conveyance - the other makes you feel special and you can experience a sense of build quality, and a character of performance that today will cost you upwards of £50k new, £80k for a twelve cylinder prestige saloon. That may not go wrong either - but it'll shed value at a couple of grand every month for the first few years.
I'd rather somebody didn't buy one of these because they were aware of these things, than bought one and ruined it for anyone else through a lack of foresight, as so very many of the examples out there end up being. Yes, you CAN buy an E32 750i for £1k. But think of it more as another £3-4k you will need to spend immediately to make it represent something close to the car it should be. I love mine very much, given our short time together so far - but being the trader I am, everything has it's price. If you want to try out how one should feel, by all means give me a call. Then try some of the cheaper ones. Mine isn't concours condition (it will approach that, the longer I own it) - but the fundamentals (ie the oily bits) are there. The electrics all work and owing to a semi-restoration a few years ago where it received a full body respray c/o BMW by the previous owner - there is no rust. I expect there were the first signs of it - so they were dealt with accordingly.
I hope that's helpful, drop me a call or e-mail if you'd like to ask anything else about the pleasures and pitfalls of these wondrous beasts.
Illustrious_Len said:
A very comprehensive and informative post!
Thank you very much for that Len. It certainly does sound like 750 ownership is a very special experience.
It is interesting how you mention the M30 six and the M60 V8. I have had thoughts of a 740i or 735iL (if I could find one of the manuals knocking about) have crossed my mind in the past. As you say, on paper the M60 is very close to the M70 in terms of power which has had me wondering if the 750 is really worth the extra 'pain', your description certainly makes me think so.
It really is the fear of big bills that make me second guess this route. Servicing isn't a problem and I certainly won't skimp on that, but with the oldest examples possibly facing over 20 years of abuse from previous owner not probably maintaining it the fear is that the damage may already be done. I work in the trade as a Bentley technician so I'm fairly confident when it comes at DIY repairs, and have access to facilities for when things do go wrong, but as you say I am worried that when a fault occurs I'm going to be down a grand trying to rectify it on parts alone. It's not like I can go to a scrapyard and find replacement bits, it doesn't even seem like there is an active owners club! I'm going to be completely honest, I can't afford several ££££ bills a year. Expensive service items I can deal with (can do most/all of the work myself) and 'low' fuel economy I can deal with (The cost will be offset by me not driving to work), but the thought of being snowed in by big bills every month scares me (even though I know it's possible that I could get a perfectly reliable good'un). I have some money saved away for this next barge, but not that much!
Do you know if the lesser e32s used a similarly complex wiring system? Whilst I know that I'd forever wishing I had 6 more cylinders under that forwards opening bonnet, a 735i seems like more sense...
Thanks again.
I went down the same road as you, except I was thinking of an E38 750i/iL.
I went for a 740 sport in the end due to the complexity of the extras such as the self levelling suspension and other bits which could cause wallet trauma, and it turned out the 740 has nearly the same performance as the 750 - a few posters said the 740 was nobbled in it's performance by BMW as it threatened to wipe out the sales of the 750 by being too close to it.
35mpg on a run @ 60, 31 ish @ 70. Current mixed mpg is at 27, which is the same as my old 735 E38 was. I haven't floored it yet as it's too much for me - I had a slight bit of turn in the wheels when making a right turn last week and put a generous amount of throttle in and it slid the back out - I need to go somewhere safe and learn how to master the beast.
Bimmerforums has been absolutely awesome for my E38 questions and techy needs.
All said, a V12 is my dream Beamer and I like the E32's but was scared of the condition of the cars/parts etc. so if you have the bottle for it, get it done and post some pics and preferably a video with the sound the engine makes
I went for a 740 sport in the end due to the complexity of the extras such as the self levelling suspension and other bits which could cause wallet trauma, and it turned out the 740 has nearly the same performance as the 750 - a few posters said the 740 was nobbled in it's performance by BMW as it threatened to wipe out the sales of the 750 by being too close to it.
35mpg on a run @ 60, 31 ish @ 70. Current mixed mpg is at 27, which is the same as my old 735 E38 was. I haven't floored it yet as it's too much for me - I had a slight bit of turn in the wheels when making a right turn last week and put a generous amount of throttle in and it slid the back out - I need to go somewhere safe and learn how to master the beast.
Bimmerforums has been absolutely awesome for my E38 questions and techy needs.
All said, a V12 is my dream Beamer and I like the E32's but was scared of the condition of the cars/parts etc. so if you have the bottle for it, get it done and post some pics and preferably a video with the sound the engine makes
Edited by joebongo on Saturday 19th December 09:04
Simps said:
Illustrious_Len said:
A very comprehensive and informative post!
Thank you very much for that Len. It certainly does sound like 750 ownership is a very special experience.
It is interesting how you mention the M30 six and the M60 V8. I have had thoughts of a 740i or 735iL (if I could find one of the manuals knocking about) have crossed my mind in the past. As you say, on paper the M60 is very close to the M70 in terms of power which has had me wondering if the 750 is really worth the extra 'pain', your description certainly makes me think so.
It really is the fear of big bills that make me second guess this route. Servicing isn't a problem and I certainly won't skimp on that, but with the oldest examples possibly facing over 20 years of abuse from previous owner not probably maintaining it the fear is that the damage may already be done. I work in the trade as a Bentley technician so I'm fairly confident when it comes at DIY repairs, and have access to facilities for when things do go wrong, but as you say I am worried that when a fault occurs I'm going to be down a grand trying to rectify it on parts alone. It's not like I can go to a scrapyard and find replacement bits, it doesn't even seem like there is an active owners club! I'm going to be completely honest, I can't afford several ££££ bills a year. Expensive service items I can deal with (can do most/all of the work myself) and 'low' fuel economy I can deal with (The cost will be offset by me not driving to work), but the thought of being snowed in by big bills every month scares me (even though I know it's possible that I could get a perfectly reliable good'un). I have some money saved away for this next barge, but not that much!
Do you know if the lesser e32s used a similarly complex wiring system? Whilst I know that I'd forever wishing I had 6 more cylinders under that forwards opening bonnet, a 735i seems like more sense...
Thanks again.
As for the owner's club, there's The E32 section of the 7 Series register, The Alpina Register - as many owners there have previously or still own V12 Sevens, or Bavarian Board, where you can find further details. There weren't too many ever built (in terms of the numbers of all Seven Series variants) so it's not uncommon to find the car's previous owners or somebody who has worked on it. I've covered nearly two thousand miles in a couple of months - bear in mind I too bought her as a weekend/occasional car, but she's just so bloody lovely to drive, it seems rude not to take it at every opportunity. I'm mindful of its low average mileage and I'm not going to do that any favours - which is why I've stuck a price on it.
All E32s used the same multiplex wiring system, just the V12s was additionally complex owing to the fact that everything that was an option on the other models, was standard on the V12s, along with having two engine management ECUs and electronically controlled suspension etc. But again, if you know one end of a soldering iron from another, you'll be OK (I don't, so made sure I bought one that just worked and paid accordingly).
The M60 740i is close on power at 286 vs. 300 bhp, but it's the character and method of how that power and torque is delivered and the feel from the driving seat that's totally different. That's what I meant about there being more to it than the bare numbers allude to. The M60s aren't without running issues either (tomes have been written about Nikasil so I'll spare that as other people have put it better than I have and they're the one variant I've never owned, driven a few - but never bought - yet), plus any long wheelbase car (the iL models) will have the self-levelling rear shocks at least, if not the full switchable EDC dampers at all four corners such as the 750i or E34 M5 3.8s had.
If you're after an excellent 735i, I could recommend my old car - that I am aware is now "Shed of the Year" - owned by a PHer and fellow trader "LHD" on the barge threads. Like me, I'm sure he'd not turn a way a reasonable offer for it, although I've asked him to let me have it back should he ever think of selling it, despite now having the Seven I always wanted (well, an E38 750i was where it started, but those within my budget were horrid, so I expanded it to include the E32 and have been happy ever since) - I still miss that old girl. I'd normally recommend to anyone considering a V12 Seven to be prepared to have £1.5-£2k available annually for maintenance - which seems to drop with more regular use. With your own access to a fully equipped workshop and a reasonable amount of technical skill, you could half that at least. I'm a salesman by training so much more than basic home maintenance and I hand it over to people far more able than I to look after in that respect - and pay accordingly.
If the car is mechanically sound, the electrics are in working order and there's no rust taking over, the odd bit of cosmetic prep can be overlooked as that's by far the cheapest thing to sort. Any Seven will cost a bit, so if you're uncertain enough, go for the 3.5 M30 engine, in short-wheelbase form and with an autobox, the manuals were rare - not in the good way and tend to come specced pretty basically (cloth seats not uncommon). Sevens are best suited to autoboxes by a long way, it doesn't make them in any way less sporty. If you want a large engined manual saloon, seek out either an E34 535i Sport or 540i (same provisos over Nikasil, manual again rare with the V8s whereas manual 740is weren't an option), as it'll fit your requirements better. There are also a few E34 M5 3.6s around at the £3.5k-£5k bracket - running costs are generally considered to be moreso than the 750i, use it hard and especially so. The initial purchase price of those has the capacity to be one of the smallest bills if you end up with a bad'un. 735is, check the cooling system and radiator are in good shape (rads last between 80-100k and are in the region of £3-400 to sort), but generally they're very robust units, they're delightfully simple (2 valve per cyl layout - like the V12, but much more space to work around with the engine in situ if you need to) and were at the end of their life cycle in the E32 so any bugbears were pretty much ironed out after 20 years' service.
I'll second Len's comments regarding a good E32 750 holding few causes for concern but a bad one being a potential nightmare. I've owned my '88 750iL since 2000 having bought it from my brother who purchased it as an approved used BMW in '98. It has 88K on it & has been maintained by franchised BMW dealers since new. Over the years I've replaced the self-levelling rear shocks, various suspension bushes,electric seat motors,replaced the hydraulic lines necessitating rear axle removal, updated the aircon coolant etc & kept it bog standard using OEM parts - but it's really been a dream. I run it on Mobil 1, drive it gently from cold & allow for the fact that it's a heavy car & if you constantly hustle it through the twisties, then expect a big increase in suspension wear, especially the many bushes. It's a very different car to the E38 740i my brother replaced it with (he needed the deeper boot for kids prams) - the 12 makes it an entirely different & more special car with everything seemingly happening at half the revs required in the V8.I can remember a trip to Belgium years ago (I was a passenger) with the cruise control set at 130 mph & the engine barely audible - magnificent! When asked to show some muscle the 12 just growls like a poked tiger rather than screaming like a startled horse as the V8s do!
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