When to go out and get 'em?
Discussion
Anyone know anything about this? What sort of policies do the coppers have for deciding when to go out and blitz a road?
I ask because I've found myself pounding along the A14/M6/M42/M5 route a bunch of times, in rush hour, in the last few weeks.
On the M42 and M5, in particular, the only times I've noticed lots of coppers has been when it's clear and sunny, dry as a bone, and when the traffic is comparatively light. Jam sarnies were conspicuous by their absense when it was pissing with rain, damn-all visibility, and nose to bumper crawl.
Just winds me up. They should be there when everyone's driving like berks, 10 feet from the guy in front with water sloshing everywhere. Grrr.
[Bonus marks to anyone who spots a 1983 song by a quirky British rock band in that post]
Edited by Marshy on Thursday 22 February 02:21
Anyone ever seen a tail gater being pulled over ?, surely this is much easier pickings than screaming down a motorway endangering other road users. Why is it that people choose to be police drivers ?, presumably they have the same urge to drive as the rest of us, only they have a license to drive as fast as they want when in pursuit. With all the technology now available, chasing speeders should be totally unecessary. The motorway traffic cop is essential for attending accidents, with all the tools and equipment at hand. Therefore something like a Transit van would be more suitable. How many people would apply for the job if they knew they had to drive a transit van instead of a high performance estate ?. Most motorway accidents (in my opinion), are caused by dangerous driving which includes driving too close in the wrong conditions. Having just been fined £430 and 6 points for minding my own business on a dry sunny motorway I have totally lost my respect for plod. I never drive close, I always drive to the conditions and try not to endanger others, yet Vectra man gets away with endangering others every single day. Sorry about the winge %$£*
quote:sorry to hear this. Indeed, it's not speed that kills but the wrong speed at the wrong time. There is no general speed limit on german motorways, and yet they have the least no of accidents per mile of any motorway in the world. Speed limits are not explainable by reason or logic - they're politics. Nothing else.
Having just been fined £430 and 6 points for minding my own business on a dry sunny motorway I have totally lost my respect for plod. I never drive close, I always drive to the conditions and try not to endanger others, yet Vectra man gets away with endangering others every single day. Sorry about the winge %$£*
Actually, I think REVENUE is the Major factor.. Safety ? Way down the list..
If Plod would also concentrate on getting Middle Lane Drivers @50mph to move over, and stop people undertaking when unnecessary that could go a long way to reducing accidents.. Oh yeah, and stop `em smoking while driving too..
I agree, I got nicked for doing 43mph at 12.45 at night in a 30 zone the roads were empty and vision was excellent (as put in the statement from the police officer). It was in Dartford after dropping my girlfriend home. I see people tearing around there in XR3's and saxo's between 9 and 11 so why don't they get out there at these time's? So now I have 3 points and a £40 fine.
John,
You've answered my question at the same time as having a pointed go at the issue of speed, specifically. Speed wasn't the issue I was getting at.
What I'm interested in is whether there's any concious decision making about whether to go and patrol motorways (say) when you know very well that conditions are more dangerous than usual. For instance, as I said, when it's streaming wet in the middle of rush hour.
In the solid block of 8 days commuting I did recently, the traffic speeds were a little lower in the wet (only a little...) but the traffic density was disproportionately higher, and the stopping distances being left were, well you know all too well.
So it just struck me as odd that there was a clearly concerted police presence on a couple of the sunny days, but none of the wet ones. It's all to easy to look at the sunny days and wonder if it's "easy pickings", if one's being cynical. Which I'm not, necessarily... just playing devil's advocate.
OK, I was trying to keep away from the issue of speed specifically: it's not what I was getting at. I am trying to make the point that perhaps there's something of a public relations and "image" issue, given where and when we do and do not see a high profile presence.
Put another way, the public at large are made out to be f***witted (hello to the swear word filter) at the wheel of a car. The police should be seen to be a setting a good example. The problem as I see it, sometimes, is that the police don't always seem to be doing the right thing. Regardless of whether they are or not, it sometimes doesn't look like it (cruising motorways in good not bad weather, speed traps on the way out of villages not on the way in, poor signalling/driving from marked vehicles, and so on). Hence my referring to this as an image or PR issue.
I'm not trying to have a go here: I'm trying to explore what the policy issues are, who decides the where/when/how of it and so on. It's looking increasingly, from your answers, like there is no overall control over this sort of thing, so I guess that sort of answers my question.
Edited by Marshy on Thursday 8th March 22:48
John, I`d love it it if the Essex police Did listen and learn.. In my Road a Car has been broken into/Stolen EVERY SUNDAY for 7 weeks. I know this cause I have reported 3 of the break ins, and my fathers car has been stolen/broken into 3 times.
I did however a copper on a SUNDAY Hidden behind an unmarked car with a radar gun............
Sorry to rant and rave but I think we All know that there are idiots out there on the roads ( Last week I crawled past a school at 20mph as there were Kids being walked home and I watched 2/3 cars with women and kids in them zooming up the road ! ) but the Complete Hatred of cars by this government drives me to drink ( But not when I am driving I hasten to add ). I also swerve to avoid other cars on roundabouts as they saunter in every lane ( and by the way this includes a Marked Police car who then accelerated Away from me in a 30mph ?!?!? ) Why isn`t more done about this kind of 'dangerous' driving ? And surely Middle Lane Hoggers could be pulled over for driving with Undue care and attention ?
PS Marshy, if there was a discernable pattern to when Plod were out to get us with the Radar Detectors, it would be a bit of a waste of time them going would it not ?
....Light Blue touch paper and run like hell....
Edited by Jason F on Friday 9th March 12:38
Firstly, top marks to Jon for being kind enough to respond to these, nice to hear a view from the other side of the fence.
Hear's the issue: If I am doing 80mph in rush hour traffic on a motorway I deserve to be penalised. It is dangerous and inappropriate.
If am doing 30mph (the advertised lmit) past a primary school at 0845 I deserve to be penalised. It is dangerous and inappropriate.
If, however, I am doing 90mph in a car that is more than capable of this speed and stopping from this speed at less than highway code braking distances for 70mph. I happen to be on a deserted motorway at 0500 on a bright sunny day then why in the hell should I be penalised?
To make matters worse many of your colleagues (be it their own or their peers' decision) go out hunting down motorists at these times. Now maybe they have targets to meet, maybe they pick times when they know people will speed, but is this in the interest of the public you are trying to protect? The answer is no. Why? because they should be out tackling dangerous drivers or the many other crimes that are currently rife in this country (keeping the auto-theme, auto-theft, vandalism,etc.,) rather than tarring a speeding driver with the same brush. Let's be honest here, speed limits that were set 35 years ago aren't relevant these days and those that are changed are rapidly being dropped 10mph 3 months before a gatso magically appears. With all this new high-tech gadgetry why is the Police not talking to manufacturers about devices to assist drivers in making good decisions on speed rather than just catching them out? Variable speed limits based upon conditions and traffic density on motorways that actually go over 70mph in the right conditions for starters. I'm in favour for actually reducing speed limits in residential roads to 20mph but raise them on A roads from 30 to 40, keep the national limit at 70 and then motorways a variable limit from 40 to 90 depending on conditions. Re: the drivers and roads you mentioned in the post, how many times have you honestly broken the speed limit on that road (be it part of your job or otherwise) and not had an accident? I feel (although could be wrong) that it wasn't the outright speeding that caused the problem but a combination of too high a speed and driver's inability to handle the situation he was presented with.
Agree with a lot of what has been said (including John being good for being so open here)
My personal concern is that because speed is so easily defined/fined it is more regulary acted upon than just plain old sh1t driving. If the general standards of driving were improved/more heavily policed then we would have safer roads. I do believe that the number of complete plonkers on our roads is far too high and that training needs to be improved. By training I do not mean training someone to pass a simple test but training to actually understand what driving is about.
The main gripe that a lot of us have though,is that getting a picture through the post with the accompanying fine & points does not tell the guilty driver why their speed was innapropriate, merely that it was, so no real leason learnt. This results in the number of people who spend a lot of time gazing at the speedo rather than observing the road ahead. If they were stopped and had the situation properly explained (plus fine & points where appropriate) then I live in hope that they would learn.
Anyway, that's off my chest !
P.S No, I have never had a 'photo through the post so this is not an axe grinding, apologies to those that have if the circumstances were questionable
Edited by ADB on Friday 9th March 17:36
quote:Having passed this course does not entitle you to drive faster than the speed limit allows - you broke the law unless it was part of your duty to drive over the limit - did you apply for 3 points?
Yes I have broken the speed limit on that road whilst at work, but I did spend quite a lot of time passing the apropriate driving course.
The key word here is APPROPRIATE. Do you really think that because you have passed an appropriate driving course that you are more up to the job of speeding, why shouldn't this be applied to driving at an appropriate speed for the prevailing road/weather/time conditions?
The Government IS using the motorist to raise extra revenue. It is an easy moneymaker that can be implementd at a profit while hiding behind an immotive subject - just in the same way that petrol is hiked up to save the environment (that's another subject). Even the police force is getting in on the act by benefiting from the proceeds of speed cameras - they'll be giving bonuses to police officers for the most speeding tickets next.
PS, John. It's not your fault, I blame the Government
Edited by macca on Friday 9th March 19:01 John,
Thanks for your comments. It's refreshing to get something resembling a balanced debate going, without too much emotion getting into it. I think you've answered the questions flapping around in my mind now.
Where do you stand on the issue of variable limits? Yes, I know *I'm* turning back to the issue of speed, having tried to avoid it specifically so far!
I ask because in the last year or two I've done a bit of driving through Europe and two things struck me: their higher motorway limits are offset by a much higher standard of motorway driving where courtesy, discipline and awareness play a big part (returning to the M20 after that was a shock!). This was true of France, Belgium and Germany. I also noticed lots of variable limits in Germany, set to respond to traffic density and visibility.
I wonder if we're ever going to see a situation where our (not inconsiderable) taxes go towards sensible measures like these rather than the "nannying" traffic control measures we mostly seem to get at the moment...
<<controversial mode>>
Fact: in order for 'plod' to 'get' you, you must have blundered into a carefully prepared ambush and by definition your observation skills cannot be all that great. Proposition: If you don't have the anticipation to avoid being zapped, you probably don't have it to avoid an accident. My Humble Opinion: Most police speed traps can be seen and avoided by carefully and consciously scanning the road ahead and behind, and by refraining from too much boot if the ground looks suspicious. To be zapped by an unmarked car, that car must have had a clear view of you. Therefore, you have a clear view of it. Therefore, why didn't you notice the chap with the radar gun, the suspiciously parked up car with a clear half mile viewpoint, the white blob on the road, etc, etc. Why did you overtake that car with the two steely-faced blokes inside it? As the man used to say, keep 'em peeled!
<<controversial mode off>>
Of course, I will eat my words and cringe when they 'get' me, but so far so good!
</fond memory> Wads. Unfortunatly chasing and catching people is just about the only way of getting a conviction these days. Yes we do have some sucess with the new devices, most people, ie Mr average working man, holds his hands up when he gets caught, pays the fine takes the point, and calls it a day, fair cop etc. The others are at oposite ends of the scale. Mr. Loadsa money, He tries to get off by hiring the best solicitor he can afford, comes up with all of the latest excuses he's heard down the pub/health club and takes it as far as he can. Mr. Scroate on the other hand ignores everything till he eventually gets arrested the Mr. average and Loadsa money pick up his legal aid bill. He then goes to court, (Crown if poss)tells a pack of lies and tries to get off with it that way. So like I say the best way is face to face. What car do you drive Mr Wads ? What if everyone drove round in Transits? or why not limit cars to 70mph. Yes I do enjoy my job I go to work, not knowing what the day will bring, that to me is exciting, I take a great deal of pride in my driving, it was tough getting my advanced Police driving authority. I have been involved in numerous persuits, dealt with 100's of RTA's, got to RTA's before ambulances, used my first aid skills, to help injured persons, in the past 4 years I have been doing it as a traffic officer, for 8 years before that I did it using a Ford Escort or Transit. What do you do ? do you enjoy it?. If not apply for the Police get an advanced ticket and you to can drive a Volvo T5, Omega V6 or Mondeo V6. There is the downside though. Bad pay, no flashy offices ( I work from a run down Victorian nick)Oh you also have to put up with the odd nutter who wants to try and kill you, or the idiot motorist that thinks he is above the law and that all coppers should be out catching real criminals like burglars. Mmm Last year 3 of my real criminals were ordinary motorists, they are now doing 3-4 years a piece at Her Majesties Pleasure for death x dangerous driving. One of those was just minding his own business on a nice open road, not much traffic about, gave it a taste, lost control, hit a car comming the other way and killed his passenger and the driver of the other car, maybe 6 points and a fine the week before would have changed things?, maybe not, who knows. Sorry to sound a bit OTT but what is the answer?. I don't just hand out tickets I try to use my experience, discretion advice and on occasion video equipment to educate drivers, maybe it works maybe not. But I believe in my job and try to do it well. No one likes to have there driving criticised, but we all can make mistakes, me included, to date I've not done it (back door of Tranny van excluded) but I do realise I am not Immortal
Edited by john robson on Saturday 10th March 22:46
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