Expected power gain on S1
Discussion
I want to increase the power a little in my S1 Elise - standard k-series.
My current setup (engine wise) is K&N filter element in the airfilter box, 52mm TB and a Janspeed exhaust (silencer only). I have been advised to install a small bore 4-2-1 manifold, racing cat. and Hurricane induction kit to begin with. What sort of power increase can I expect from these simple modifications?
Later on I plan on a DVA 13A kit - but funds dictate smaller steps I'm afraid
My current setup (engine wise) is K&N filter element in the airfilter box, 52mm TB and a Janspeed exhaust (silencer only). I have been advised to install a small bore 4-2-1 manifold, racing cat. and Hurricane induction kit to begin with. What sort of power increase can I expect from these simple modifications?
Later on I plan on a DVA 13A kit - but funds dictate smaller steps I'm afraid
Certain the manifold will be a good step forward. The induction is something you could look at, particularly if you plan more in the future, but if it were me I'd be going with some cams. Keep an eye open, or talk to some of the specialist and see if you can pick up some second hand.
On an otherwise standard K-series, induction and exhaust mods alone will make very little noticable difference. A good 421 manifold will perhaps give a touch more mid-range torque, but after a few miles you will be oblivious to any difference it may have made, and the Hurricane and sports cat will do nothing but add more noise.
The bottleneck in the K, and the key to releasing real meaningful improvements, is the cylinder head. If you really want to see some gains for as little outlay as possible, then I'd spend the money set aside for the cat and induction on getting the head ported. Even on standard cams and ECU you will get improved power throughout the rev range.
The bottleneck in the K, and the key to releasing real meaningful improvements, is the cylinder head. If you really want to see some gains for as little outlay as possible, then I'd spend the money set aside for the cat and induction on getting the head ported. Even on standard cams and ECU you will get improved power throughout the rev range.
thegreenhell said:
On an otherwise standard K-series, induction and exhaust mods alone will make very little noticable difference. A good 421 manifold will perhaps give a touch more mid-range torque, but after a few miles you will be oblivious to any difference it may have made, and the Hurricane and sports cat will do nothing but add more noise.
The bottleneck in the K, and the key to releasing real meaningful improvements, is the cylinder head. If you really want to see some gains for as little outlay as possible, then I'd spend the money set aside for the cat and induction on getting the head ported. Even on standard cams and ECU you will get improved power throughout the rev range.
don't dissagree with the sentiment, although it's a little pessimistic...The bottleneck in the K, and the key to releasing real meaningful improvements, is the cylinder head. If you really want to see some gains for as little outlay as possible, then I'd spend the money set aside for the cat and induction on getting the head ported. Even on standard cams and ECU you will get improved power throughout the rev range.
4-2-1 is the best start point, and whilst it will not gain you 20+ bhp, it will gain you 10+Ft/Lbs where it counts, and opens the door to more power with light engine mods.
Ported head would be the next step, even something as quick and dirty as a 135 head would be good.
cams are IMHO not worth the effort until you have had the head done.
As well as giving some immedietly noticable gains in torque the 4-2-1 is also 'money in the bank' when you get the head done.
I'll probably get shot down in flames for this heresey but why not some mild cams as well before the head work?
They would give useful gains over about 3.5k rpm and the losses in torque lower down would be offset by the 4-2-1. Should be able to buy the cams and get them fitted for about £500.
Best overall result at reasonable cost giving gains in torque and power would be from a decent big valve head from either DVA or Kiwirog (£6-700 for the head work) then fitting costs. Then add cams and 4-2-1 as you can.
To be honest the cheapest way is to get the work done in one go: saves doubling up on some of the labour.
I'm probably going to go the Duratec route sometime and was thinking of just sticking some Piper 633 cams on my engine for now: it'll be a bit 'cammy' but that doesn't worry me too much and with the c/r/ box its easier for me to keep the car up in the sweet zone anyway.
I'll probably get shot down in flames for this heresey but why not some mild cams as well before the head work?
They would give useful gains over about 3.5k rpm and the losses in torque lower down would be offset by the 4-2-1. Should be able to buy the cams and get them fitted for about £500.
Best overall result at reasonable cost giving gains in torque and power would be from a decent big valve head from either DVA or Kiwirog (£6-700 for the head work) then fitting costs. Then add cams and 4-2-1 as you can.
To be honest the cheapest way is to get the work done in one go: saves doubling up on some of the labour.
I'm probably going to go the Duratec route sometime and was thinking of just sticking some Piper 633 cams on my engine for now: it'll be a bit 'cammy' but that doesn't worry me too much and with the c/r/ box its easier for me to keep the car up in the sweet zone anyway.
TIPPER said:
As well as giving some immedietly noticable gains in torque the 4-2-1 is also 'money in the bank' when you get the head done.
I'll probably get shot down in flames for this heresey but why not some mild cams as well before the head work?
They would give useful gains over about 3.5k rpm and the losses in torque lower down would be offset by the 4-2-1. Should be able to buy the cams and get them fitted for about £500.
Best overall result at reasonable cost giving gains in torque and power would be from a decent big valve head from either DVA or Kiwirog (£6-700 for the head work) then fitting costs. Then add cams and 4-2-1 as you can.
To be honest the cheapest way is to get the work done in one go: saves doubling up on some of the labour.
I'm probably going to go the Duratec route sometime and was thinking of just sticking some Piper 633 cams on my engine for now: it'll be a bit 'cammy' but that doesn't worry me too much and with the c/r/ box its easier for me to keep the car up in the sweet zone anyway.
probably not the best example, but compare a 135 with a 160 engine, then tell me cams are a better bet?I'll probably get shot down in flames for this heresey but why not some mild cams as well before the head work?
They would give useful gains over about 3.5k rpm and the losses in torque lower down would be offset by the 4-2-1. Should be able to buy the cams and get them fitted for about £500.
Best overall result at reasonable cost giving gains in torque and power would be from a decent big valve head from either DVA or Kiwirog (£6-700 for the head work) then fitting costs. Then add cams and 4-2-1 as you can.
To be honest the cheapest way is to get the work done in one go: saves doubling up on some of the labour.
I'm probably going to go the Duratec route sometime and was thinking of just sticking some Piper 633 cams on my engine for now: it'll be a bit 'cammy' but that doesn't worry me too much and with the c/r/ box its easier for me to keep the car up in the sweet zone anyway.
Not disagreeing at all (I did say a head job will give best overall results).
For a fairly quick and easy, low cost way to some more top end power (albeit at the expense of some lumpiness and loss of torque low down) then you can diy a set of cams for less than £500. As my old Dad would have said - 'hardly an elegent solution'.
My car hardly ever sees a town so with the c/r box compensating for some of the torque losses then I hope to be able to get a bit more ooomph at the top end where I really could do with it at the mo.
All depends on what you use the car for.
For a fairly quick and easy, low cost way to some more top end power (albeit at the expense of some lumpiness and loss of torque low down) then you can diy a set of cams for less than £500. As my old Dad would have said - 'hardly an elegent solution'.
My car hardly ever sees a town so with the c/r box compensating for some of the torque losses then I hope to be able to get a bit more ooomph at the top end where I really could do with it at the mo.
All depends on what you use the car for.
Just a word of caution on the progressive upgrade route on the K series. It can end up costing you a fortune once you go (or think you want to go) beyond about 175 bhp. That's how I did it and I don't want to confess on here how much it actually cost in case my wife ever found out!
If you think that you might ever want horsepower in excess of that number, just bite the bullet and go straight for an engine conversion. It'll be cheaper (and probably more reliable) in the long run, and I suspect you will get more of your money back if you ever come to sell the car.
If you think that you might ever want horsepower in excess of that number, just bite the bullet and go straight for an engine conversion. It'll be cheaper (and probably more reliable) in the long run, and I suspect you will get more of your money back if you ever come to sell the car.
Incredible Sulk said:
Just a word of caution on the progressive upgrade route on the K series. It can end up costing you a fortune once you go (or think you want to go) beyond about 175 bhp. That's how I did it and I don't want to confess on here how much it actually cost in case my wife ever found out!
If you think that you might ever want horsepower in excess of that number, just bite the bullet and go straight for an engine conversion. It'll be cheaper (and probably more reliable) in the long run, and I suspect you will get more of your money back if you ever come to sell the car.
One of the reason's I shall be going the conversion route: My car will be on 80k at the end of next year and the cost of a rebuild and decent power upgradw won't be far off a Duratec conversion.If you think that you might ever want horsepower in excess of that number, just bite the bullet and go straight for an engine conversion. It'll be cheaper (and probably more reliable) in the long run, and I suspect you will get more of your money back if you ever come to sell the car.
Incredible Sulk said:
Just a word of caution on the progressive upgrade route on the K series. It can end up costing you a fortune once you go (or think you want to go) beyond about 175 bhp. That's how I did it and I don't want to confess on here how much it actually cost in case my wife ever found out!
If you think that you might ever want horsepower in excess of that number, just bite the bullet and go straight for an engine conversion. It'll be cheaper (and probably more reliable) in the long run, and I suspect you will get more of your money back if you ever come to sell the car.
exactly ...like most who have/had an engine conversion years ago, Id already gone down the upgrade the K route...sure you can sell bits along the way too, even the K itself ...but once youve done say £2500-3000 to get to 170bhp ish, then after that its the law of diminishing returnsIf you think that you might ever want horsepower in excess of that number, just bite the bullet and go straight for an engine conversion. It'll be cheaper (and probably more reliable) in the long run, and I suspect you will get more of your money back if you ever come to sell the car.
a £12-15K new K series build is quite easy to buy off the shelf....hence the conversion market coming out in the first place LOL
170bhp is about the sweet spot for a K series on £/bhp IMO - if you want more than that, save up for a bog standard HOnda or Audi engine with 220bhp or more out of the box......
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