997 / 996 GT3 Vs 111R
Discussion
Hi All,
Well I have been hit by the Porsche stick, after being out recently in a 997 Carrara S and also a 996 GT3.
Only thing is our car park is full of 911's , I still love the Elise but cannot help thinking a 911 could be a good option for a while. But I am not sure I can part with Elise ownership tho...
However looking further into it, it looks like a first glance the 911 would not cost that much more than 111R in terms of Servicing (http://www.porscheshop.co.uk/acatalog/workshop-1997-onwards.pdf)
So on the sensations part do people miss the Elise after going down this route?
or am i going soft and should I shut up and just keeping driving the R!
Well I have been hit by the Porsche stick, after being out recently in a 997 Carrara S and also a 996 GT3.
Only thing is our car park is full of 911's , I still love the Elise but cannot help thinking a 911 could be a good option for a while. But I am not sure I can part with Elise ownership tho...
However looking further into it, it looks like a first glance the 911 would not cost that much more than 111R in terms of Servicing (http://www.porscheshop.co.uk/acatalog/workshop-1997-onwards.pdf)
So on the sensations part do people miss the Elise after going down this route?
or am i going soft and should I shut up and just keeping driving the R!
Edited by Stu_00 on Wednesday 14th October 08:48
Nooooo, don't jump! - you said yourself that the car park is full of 911s', while the Elise is far more exclusive.
I've never driven a 911 - did you get a grin as big as the Elise gives you?
Trouble is there are loads of nice cars out there and I can see that (unless you're minted) you have to part with one to experience another, but there's nothing like an Elise.
I've never driven a 911 - did you get a grin as big as the Elise gives you?
Trouble is there are loads of nice cars out there and I can see that (unless you're minted) you have to part with one to experience another, but there's nothing like an Elise.
My original plan this time last year was to order a new Carrera 2. I ended up with an SC. I spent quite a bit of time in 911s and am generally a big fan.
I guess you might be right that servicing on a Porsche is about the same as the Lotus but there is a big 'but'. Ask on the Porsche forum but I guess that most people take the warranty. That'll add GBP 1500 a year. I wanted a car that I could keep and at some stage something will go wrong on both cars. With the Porsche it could be very expensive. I'm really not that bothered with the potential costs with a Lotus & have much more faith in the build quality of Toyota than a modern water cooled Porsche.
I drove a whole variety of 911s. What first kicked me into my 911 search was spending a very good day / many hundreds of miles in a 997 GT3 RS. It's mega, there is no real other way of describing it. The suspension has that Lotus sporty yet able to glide feeling; the thought of the engine, especially from 5k to it's 8k limit, still sends shivers down my spine.
I found the Turbos boring. They are very, very fast but totally shield you from the sensation of speed and are rather lacking in feel. I think this is due to the 4WD system.
The standard car is very nice. If my 3 year old had found more space in the back there would be a nice C2 in Mexico Blue sitting in my garage now. It's a great compromise, but that, in the end of the day is what it is - a compromise. For a touring car it will do it's job well, it is steps ahead of my Elise for day-to-day use and it is sporty but it also doesn't drive a million miles better than a great BMW - it has that same solid feeling.
Give me one of my local mountain passes (Klausen, Susten etc) and the choice of my Elise or a Carrera and I'd take the Lotus - it is a far better tool for the job. Given a nice trip down to see friends in Provence I'd take the Porsche. If the choice on the pass was with a GT3 I'd take the Porsche, if nothing else out of curiosity whether it was better that the Lotus. I think it might be a close one.
At some stage I may well add a 911 to the garage but I think the sweet spot would be a late 3.2. If I was a betting man I reckon that I may well add a fast Evora next instead of a new 911. The choice will be very different if I still had the option of the Elise for early morning drives. (and of course 2 Lotuses would solve the carrying-a-family problem
)
If I was a far richer man I'd be straight to my local Porsche Zentrum for a GT3 RS.
I guess you might be right that servicing on a Porsche is about the same as the Lotus but there is a big 'but'. Ask on the Porsche forum but I guess that most people take the warranty. That'll add GBP 1500 a year. I wanted a car that I could keep and at some stage something will go wrong on both cars. With the Porsche it could be very expensive. I'm really not that bothered with the potential costs with a Lotus & have much more faith in the build quality of Toyota than a modern water cooled Porsche.
I drove a whole variety of 911s. What first kicked me into my 911 search was spending a very good day / many hundreds of miles in a 997 GT3 RS. It's mega, there is no real other way of describing it. The suspension has that Lotus sporty yet able to glide feeling; the thought of the engine, especially from 5k to it's 8k limit, still sends shivers down my spine.
I found the Turbos boring. They are very, very fast but totally shield you from the sensation of speed and are rather lacking in feel. I think this is due to the 4WD system.
The standard car is very nice. If my 3 year old had found more space in the back there would be a nice C2 in Mexico Blue sitting in my garage now. It's a great compromise, but that, in the end of the day is what it is - a compromise. For a touring car it will do it's job well, it is steps ahead of my Elise for day-to-day use and it is sporty but it also doesn't drive a million miles better than a great BMW - it has that same solid feeling.
Give me one of my local mountain passes (Klausen, Susten etc) and the choice of my Elise or a Carrera and I'd take the Lotus - it is a far better tool for the job. Given a nice trip down to see friends in Provence I'd take the Porsche. If the choice on the pass was with a GT3 I'd take the Porsche, if nothing else out of curiosity whether it was better that the Lotus. I think it might be a close one.
At some stage I may well add a 911 to the garage but I think the sweet spot would be a late 3.2. If I was a betting man I reckon that I may well add a fast Evora next instead of a new 911. The choice will be very different if I still had the option of the Elise for early morning drives. (and of course 2 Lotuses would solve the carrying-a-family problem
)If I was a far richer man I'd be straight to my local Porsche Zentrum for a GT3 RS.
Sorry I really don't get the 911 and that's not for the lack of trying. I totally get the appeal of the watercooled flat sixes in NA form but not the location within the chassis. All for what? 2 poxy back seats that a 3 year old feels cramped in?
I seriously don't understand how so many people seem able to put up with the rear engine feel. I know the engineers have found ways around the laws of physics but the feel of the wierd weight distribution is there all the time. The light bobbing nose, the awkwardness in every corner - sure it corners fast and has lots of traction but it feels wierd. Of course I'm alone and everyone else seems oblivious but its why I would never swap my Elise for a 911.
Do one wet trackday in an Elise and then try it in a 911 and I don't think you'll be so keen to swap.
I seriously don't understand how so many people seem able to put up with the rear engine feel. I know the engineers have found ways around the laws of physics but the feel of the wierd weight distribution is there all the time. The light bobbing nose, the awkwardness in every corner - sure it corners fast and has lots of traction but it feels wierd. Of course I'm alone and everyone else seems oblivious but its why I would never swap my Elise for a 911.
Do one wet trackday in an Elise and then try it in a 911 and I don't think you'll be so keen to swap.
From memory there's not a huge difference in the weight distribution between an Elise and a 911. Sure you have to learn how to drive it to get the best out of it but if it was fundamentally flawed it wouldn't have the race pedigree it has.
I can understand not liking the bobbing front - it's subjective and a weird feeling at first - but the 911 is a car which takes time to learn to drive, reveals its soul slowly. For me that's part of the fun. My issue with it is that these days, in a bid to sell volume they've made it a bit too ordinary, too much of an everyday compromise. However, if you want that soul get a GT3 - it's all there.
I can understand not liking the bobbing front - it's subjective and a weird feeling at first - but the 911 is a car which takes time to learn to drive, reveals its soul slowly. For me that's part of the fun. My issue with it is that these days, in a bid to sell volume they've made it a bit too ordinary, too much of an everyday compromise. However, if you want that soul get a GT3 - it's all there.
Edited by chandrew on Wednesday 14th October 10:40
Personally, I'd go for a sweetly balanced car over 'soul' whatever that is. I think you mean 'character' which is commonly used to excuse a collection of endearing flaws. Of course the 911 is fundamentally flawed. No amount of race pedigree can alter the laws of physics. The flaws are what gives it its unique sensations, the same ones that you seem to like and the same ones I don't.
And I've no interest in a car that takes years before I can start to enjoy it.
The difference in weight distribution may be not be that great between the 911 and the Elise, but just like the difference between the 911 and the Boxster/Cayman, it makes all the world of difference.
As I mentioned no-one seems to care about this but me but I think that's based on road driving well within the cars limits. Breach those limits on the track and the Lotus's sheer class shines through. The Elise also has the best steering in the world bar none. And that's something you can enjoy round every single corner whether you're driving fast or slow.
And as for race pedigree Porsche have never one a single F1 race. Lotus 7 world titles.
And I've no interest in a car that takes years before I can start to enjoy it.
The difference in weight distribution may be not be that great between the 911 and the Elise, but just like the difference between the 911 and the Boxster/Cayman, it makes all the world of difference.
As I mentioned no-one seems to care about this but me but I think that's based on road driving well within the cars limits. Breach those limits on the track and the Lotus's sheer class shines through. The Elise also has the best steering in the world bar none. And that's something you can enjoy round every single corner whether you're driving fast or slow.
And as for race pedigree Porsche have never one a single F1 race. Lotus 7 world titles.
Mclovin said:
my problem is a gt3 has like a 30 grand engine or something....with a lotus if you get a duratec or honda conversion the engines are a couple of grand....
Actually it's more like £40k, but pretty much bulletproof in 996 form. replacements if ever needed are less than half that.Back to the original question....my Elise turns up tonight so I'll give you a comparison against my GT3 tomorrow!
Im afraid Im with "The Pits" - ive had a go on track in a few 911s, inc a rich mans RSR, and driven a couple of basic 996 on the road.
I just couldnt get to grips with the engine out back thing on the track, and I dont have the motivation to spend months re-learning how to drive, just because someone put the engine in the wrong place to save a few quid 50 years ago LOL
On the road, theyve put a lot of gizmos on board to negate the feeling a little bit (compared with the lethal 80's hedgehunter 911's) but they are so refined and anodyne, they just feel like a German exec saloon to me, rather than a "sportscar"
..I dont hate them, and appreciate the engineering thats gone into them, they are truly masterpieces - even they themselves admit they add stuff to remove the pendulum effect, and with each version they get better at masking it...but I wouldnt spend my own cash on one
for me, I like my "sportscars" small, light and pretty raw and my GT cars with big growly engines up front and RWD, so I will stick to what I prefer ...thats what its about surely, if you enjoy driving....rather than polishing/following the status crowd etc
I just couldnt get to grips with the engine out back thing on the track, and I dont have the motivation to spend months re-learning how to drive, just because someone put the engine in the wrong place to save a few quid 50 years ago LOL
On the road, theyve put a lot of gizmos on board to negate the feeling a little bit (compared with the lethal 80's hedgehunter 911's) but they are so refined and anodyne, they just feel like a German exec saloon to me, rather than a "sportscar"
..I dont hate them, and appreciate the engineering thats gone into them, they are truly masterpieces - even they themselves admit they add stuff to remove the pendulum effect, and with each version they get better at masking it...but I wouldnt spend my own cash on one
for me, I like my "sportscars" small, light and pretty raw and my GT cars with big growly engines up front and RWD, so I will stick to what I prefer ...thats what its about surely, if you enjoy driving....rather than polishing/following the status crowd etc
bogie said:
On the road, theyve put a lot of gizmos on board to negate the feeling a little bit (compared with the lethal 80's hedgehunter 911's) but they are so refined and anodyne, they just feel like a German exec saloon to me, rather than a "sportscar"
..I dont hate them, and appreciate the engineering thats gone into them, they are truly masterpieces - even they themselves admit they add stuff to remove the pendulum effect, and with each version they get better at masking it...but I wouldnt spend my own cash on one
for me, I like my "sportscars" small, light and pretty raw and my GT cars with big growly engines up front and RWD, so I will stick to what I prefer ...thats what its about surely, if you enjoy driving....rather than polishing/following the status crowd etc
If you are referring to a standard Carrera or Turbo, I think your assessment is pretty much spot on. Ths 1st time I drove a 911 I was decidely underwhelmed by the experience, I was expecting something that was a little more raw rather than an immensly capable vehicle. However a 996 GT3 or GT3RS are very different beasts. They have much more of the feel of an Elsie or Exige about them. The only gizmo's are ABS, no traction or stability control, they are anything but a german exec saloon. I'm surprised you found an RSR like an exec saloon! The steering is incredibly sharp, brakes very strong. An acquired taste definitely, but no 911 GT car could ever be described as like an exec saloon...I dont hate them, and appreciate the engineering thats gone into them, they are truly masterpieces - even they themselves admit they add stuff to remove the pendulum effect, and with each version they get better at masking it...but I wouldnt spend my own cash on one
for me, I like my "sportscars" small, light and pretty raw and my GT cars with big growly engines up front and RWD, so I will stick to what I prefer ...thats what its about surely, if you enjoy driving....rather than polishing/following the status crowd etc
bogie said:
Im afraid Im with "The Pits" - ive had a go on track in a few 911s, inc a rich mans RSR, and driven a couple of basic 996 on the road.
I just couldnt get to grips with the engine out back thing on the track, and I dont have the motivation to spend months re-learning how to drive, just because someone put the engine in the wrong place to save a few quid 50 years ago LOL
On the road, theyve put a lot of gizmos on board to negate the feeling a little bit (compared with the lethal 80's hedgehunter 911's) but they are so refined and anodyne, they just feel like a German exec saloon to me, rather than a "sportscar"
..I dont hate them, and appreciate the engineering thats gone into them, they are truly masterpieces - even they themselves admit they add stuff to remove the pendulum effect, and with each version they get better at masking it...but I wouldnt spend my own cash on one
for me, I like my "sportscars" small, light and pretty raw and my GT cars with big growly engines up front and RWD, so I will stick to what I prefer ...thats what its about surely, if you enjoy driving....rather than polishing/following the status crowd etc
+1 and lol.I just couldnt get to grips with the engine out back thing on the track, and I dont have the motivation to spend months re-learning how to drive, just because someone put the engine in the wrong place to save a few quid 50 years ago LOL
On the road, theyve put a lot of gizmos on board to negate the feeling a little bit (compared with the lethal 80's hedgehunter 911's) but they are so refined and anodyne, they just feel like a German exec saloon to me, rather than a "sportscar"
..I dont hate them, and appreciate the engineering thats gone into them, they are truly masterpieces - even they themselves admit they add stuff to remove the pendulum effect, and with each version they get better at masking it...but I wouldnt spend my own cash on one
for me, I like my "sportscars" small, light and pretty raw and my GT cars with big growly engines up front and RWD, so I will stick to what I prefer ...thats what its about surely, if you enjoy driving....rather than polishing/following the status crowd etc
You have to be very suspicious of a car that uses rear tyres that wide.
GT03ROB said:
bogie said:
On the road, theyve put a lot of gizmos on board to negate the feeling a little bit (compared with the lethal 80's hedgehunter 911's) but they are so refined and anodyne, they just feel like a German exec saloon to me, rather than a "sportscar"
..I dont hate them, and appreciate the engineering thats gone into them, they are truly masterpieces - even they themselves admit they add stuff to remove the pendulum effect, and with each version they get better at masking it...but I wouldnt spend my own cash on one
for me, I like my "sportscars" small, light and pretty raw and my GT cars with big growly engines up front and RWD, so I will stick to what I prefer ...thats what its about surely, if you enjoy driving....rather than polishing/following the status crowd etc
If you are referring to a standard Carrera or Turbo, I think your assessment is pretty much spot on. Ths 1st time I drove a 911 I was decidely underwhelmed by the experience, I was expecting something that was a little more raw rather than an immensly capable vehicle. However a 996 GT3 or GT3RS are very different beasts. They have much more of the feel of an Elsie or Exige about them. The only gizmo's are ABS, no traction or stability control, they are anything but a german exec saloon. I'm surprised you found an RSR like an exec saloon! The steering is incredibly sharp, brakes very strong. An acquired taste definitely, but no 911 GT car could ever be described as like an exec saloon...I dont hate them, and appreciate the engineering thats gone into them, they are truly masterpieces - even they themselves admit they add stuff to remove the pendulum effect, and with each version they get better at masking it...but I wouldnt spend my own cash on one
for me, I like my "sportscars" small, light and pretty raw and my GT cars with big growly engines up front and RWD, so I will stick to what I prefer ...thats what its about surely, if you enjoy driving....rather than polishing/following the status crowd etc
I understand the track orientated ones are much more raw and "alive", most cars are TBH, without gizmos and stripped out with hard suspension - ive been a pax in road going GT3RS and it sure was a bumpy ride on a B road, and ive driven on track a 996 RS and RSR ...that was a truly scary contraption on slicks - maybe it was me, being a novice, but 20 mins later I gave up trying to drive it - im not that persistant or good (why should I be, when I can get to grips with mid or rear engined cars, in a few laps) - respect due to those guys that drive these uber beetles in GT or at LeMans - they truly are skilled
/good cars no doubt (their sales, and race wins prove that), but not for me, I just CBA and dont have time to learn to drive again
The Pits said:
I stand corrected. In fairness is was before I was born!
F1 wins:
Porsche 1
Lotus 74
F1 Poles:
Porsche 1
Lotus: 102
(thanks Ayrton!)
Le Mans 24 Hour wins:F1 wins:
Porsche 1
Lotus 74
F1 Poles:
Porsche 1
Lotus: 102
(thanks Ayrton!)
Porsche: 16
Lotus: 0
Just to add a bit of balance ...
But seriously I have an air-cooled 911 (and an Elise) the only gizmos it has over the Elise are power steering and ABS, it does not love hedges, it does not try to kill me, it does not understeer or 'bob' about, however, it is brilliant fun to drive. And so is the Elise.
It is true you have to work at the 911 a bit to drive it well, but that's a lot of the fun. If you drive a 911 well then the rewards are immense.
I also don't think they are that different from the Elise to drive fast (esp. on track) its all about weight transfer. The Elise is also a huge challenge to drive well, I certainly didn't find I could just get in and fly. Indeed one of the reasons I bought one was because it would be a challenge.
Stu_00 said:
So on the sensations part do people miss the Elise after going down this route?
I used to have a bog standard S1 and loved it, now have a 996 C2 with the official Porsche sports suspension. The steering is far 'better' in the Lotus although the 911 is still streets ahead of anything else I've driven, just not in the Elise league.I couldn't keep the 'liz as we got a dog, so the Porsche fits the bill (yes, those seats aren't great but the mutt doesn't complain!) and it is a supremely capable all rounder. On the rare occasions that you have an empty road, it will deliver 95% of the excitement the Elise can, yet can comfortably be driven to the south of France, fully laden, and return over 30mpg.
The rear engine thing is something that does take some getting used to in my experience - I didn't get it at first but had the suspension refreshed on my 70k miles car and a full geo done (with more aggressive camber to offset the 'safe' factory setup) and it transformed the car, feels much more balanced now.
I couldn't live with the Elise as my only car but would love to have another for the weekends.
The Pits said:
I stand corrected. In fairness is was before I was born!
F1 wins:
Porsche 1
Lotus 74
F1 Poles:
Porsche 1
Lotus: 102
(thanks Ayrton!)
Completely agree; Lotus's record in Grand Prix racing is supreme, but Porsche only really tried it a couple of times and they were a World Champion engine supplier, which Lotus never were. I think the track record of both marques is remarkable and something which could be debated endlessly. I have a greater affinity with Lotus, but still adore 908, 917, 936, 956, etc. etc.F1 wins:
Porsche 1
Lotus 74
F1 Poles:
Porsche 1
Lotus: 102
(thanks Ayrton!)
I've recently gone from an S1 to a 997 C2S. My circumstances changed and I was craving a more comfortable and relaxing commuter car (for 70 miles a day). I have a 5 year old daughter so the rear seats have been a greater bonus than originally anticipated which means I get to drive my sports car as a family car that I could not have done previously, so would have ended up driving a boring car or a PAX... neither were very appealing.
Having recently driven a Cayman and 997 turbo back to back on a track, IMO I think the Cayman is a better balanced car, but I simply didn't like the aesthetics of the nose/headlight design when considering an Elise replacement and of course did not have the rear seat benefit.
Think about what you want from a car and then consider. If my commute became shorter I could not justify a 911 and would certainly consider return to an Elise or even Exige, or if my wife got a more interesting family barge I may contemplate a Cayman and try NOT to think about how the nose looks.
Having recently driven a Cayman and 997 turbo back to back on a track, IMO I think the Cayman is a better balanced car, but I simply didn't like the aesthetics of the nose/headlight design when considering an Elise replacement and of course did not have the rear seat benefit.
Think about what you want from a car and then consider. If my commute became shorter I could not justify a 911 and would certainly consider return to an Elise or even Exige, or if my wife got a more interesting family barge I may contemplate a Cayman and try NOT to think about how the nose looks.
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