Discussion
No, you really really dont want to have that kind of speed differencial around the circuit. Imagine a muppet driving a standard porsche GT3 along the start of the mulsanne only to get in the way of an Audi R8 doing double the speed. It would be disasterous, its bad enough with the current GT class- how so many cars last without being hit is beyond me. Atleast the GT cars can corner at a reasonable level too, then again the GT's are meant to be close to road spec. Even though TVR are the only manufacturers to produce race cars so close to thier road cars...
What would be WAAAAAAAAAAY better would be a whole new race series where standard road cars compete against eachother in an endurance format. The key factor here would be limiting the car budget - say 20k and the weight (to stop sevens winning everything). If it was popular enough it would certainly make manufacturers produce fantastic cars for this price - perhaps even at a loss, simply for the resulting publicity?
What would be WAAAAAAAAAAY better would be a whole new race series where standard road cars compete against eachother in an endurance format. The key factor here would be limiting the car budget - say 20k and the weight (to stop sevens winning everything). If it was popular enough it would certainly make manufacturers produce fantastic cars for this price - perhaps even at a loss, simply for the resulting publicity?
Think he means the actual car being raced being road registered. I don't think there should be, because they'd be too quiet for one thing! Plus the speed differential between a road registered Zonda, in full road legal trim (treaded tyres etc.) and even the slowest GT class car would be huge. And the speed differential to an LMP1 car would be downright dangerous, especially in quick corners
Theres a big difference between "road registered" and "standard"!! If Subaru Imprezas were built to full WRC road registered spec I would put an order down and do a bank job. 
Anyway - if you want major speed differencial and close to road car spec the Nurburgring 24hours is the closest you'll get.
Anyway - if you want major speed differencial and close to road car spec the Nurburgring 24hours is the closest you'll get.
Graham said:
If Subaru Imprezas were built to full WRC road registered spec I would put an order down and do a bank job.
i think you'd have to do the bank job first. you can get second hand full spec wrc scoobies but they start at about 250k
Really? that doesnt sound too bad actually?? Bet it would leave an Enzo on any road
pwig said:
Would make some interesting cars!
Certainly would, but people might miss the sound and fury of the prototypes.
For:
Cars which people could identify with.
Cars which were (nearly!) recognisable.
Possibly much closer racing.
More useful publicity for the manufacturers.
Less speed differential.
Against:
Less speed - but today's GTs aren't slow.
Potential bad publicity for non-finishers etc.
Very high cost to manufacturers.
Would the manufacturers bother?
pwig's proposition is exactly how it was in the fifties. Everything had to be road-legal, and everything had to be available for purchase by the general public (theoretically)! In 1953 there were 20 manufacturers taking part - mostly with three car teams, and two drivers per car.
It made the race much more exciting because of the intense rivalry between the various makes, and the let-out for the manufacturers was the separation of the cars into different classes, according to engine size. If you won the 2 litre class you could take a full page advert saying you'd won Le Mans!!
The real prize was the outright win though, and that's what the major manufacturers went for.
The only down side I can remember was the little trick the French had up their sleeves. They hadn't much top-class machinery at the time, so they invented something called the 'Indice de Performance' based on fuel efficiency, and they tried to give that category as much 'cred' as the big cars. Didn't really work out for them though.
Big problem because the 'Indice' cars were 60 mph slower on the Mulsanne straight (no chicanes in those days), and if you met one when the fog came down just before dawn it could be a bit exciting. You met them rather often because you lapped them rather often! Can't remember anyone being killed as a result, but it was a daft idea for all that.
For me, the best thing would be a good entry of three car teams, with one team's cars being instantly recognisable from another team's cars. But then I'm just a Grumpy Old Man...
I don`t think that there`s anything fundamentally wrong with the current reg`s bar the lack of works prototypes. IMO you need at least 4/5 proper works programmes + the usual privateers. I understand that Le Mans is a cyclical thing but it wasn`t that long ago that we had some genuine works involvemnt (if you ignore VAG).
Porsches lack of involvement/interest is a crime and why are Aston/Maserati/Ferrari/GM/VWLambo etc etc all hiding in the GT categories?
Porsches lack of involvement/interest is a crime and why are Aston/Maserati/Ferrari/GM/VWLambo etc etc all hiding in the GT categories?
BCA said:
Even though TVR are the only manufacturers to produce race cars so close to thier road cars...
Frankly, that's utter bull****. The race spec TVR's bare little resemblense to the road version. The Porsche GT3 (R,RS,RSR) is the closest thing to the road car, that's why they've built the latest incarnation of the RS for the road, with maybe the Morgan Aero 8 being the next.
[quote]
What would be WAAAAAAAAAAY better would be a whole new race series where standard road cars compete against eachother in an endurance format. The key factor here would be limiting the car budget - say 20k and the weight (to stop sevens winning everything). If it was popular enough it would certainly make manufacturers produce fantastic cars for this price - perhaps even at a loss, simply for the resulting publicity?[/quote]
There already is, it's called the Britcar series and has been running for a couple of seasons now. In 2003 it gathered a huge following and they had a night race to finish the season off at Brands Hatch. There is also a BritSports series now for sports cars of the Radical and National Sports ilk.
ettore said:
Porsches lack of involvement/interest is a crime and why are Aston/Maserati/Ferrari/GM/VWLambo etc etc all hiding in the GT categories?
Because the prototypes cost so much to design, develop and race. Even Toyota (the world's richest manufacturer) had to pull the plug when they committed themselves to F1. Ditto Ferrari - they can't afford to do a prototype program and F1 side by side. The resources just aren't there. Can you see Ford sanctioning a big enough budget for an Aston prototype, or VW promoting Lambo when they've already spent a fortune on the Audi effort? It would be wonderful if there were half-a-dozen three-car LMP teams, but it isn't going to happen.
There's a rumour that ACO are thinking of scrapping the LMP class and returning to their traditional format, because they can't get enough entries, and because they feel that the prototypes are meaningless to the average punter. Take a look at the Daytona entry list and you'll see what I mean - even the nationalities of the cars are puzzling for casual semi-enthusiasts and TV viewers, and these 'casual' people are the commercial target of long-distance racing. Money again!
I think you have to put yourself in the position of the manufacturers and organisers and ask yourself what you would do. Leave it as it is with dwindling interest, or change it back to the original concept? Difficult.
I put my cards on the table as an unapologetic traditionalist.
The race was started as an endurance race for sports cars, there was even a regulation that required a hood to be errected for a set number of laps and a standard box had to be capable of being carried to show luggage carrying potential.
It seems logical to me that sports cars should be roadable, look at the C & D Type Jaguars that drove to the circuit from Coventry, the various Ferraris that could be seen on the road, the Cobras and even the GT40, I've been overtaken by a 250LM and a number of GT40s on the M4 and we all know what a Le Mans Cobra did on the M1. It doesn't require much of a knowledge of motorsport to remember how well the very roadable MGBs went at La Sarthe. Even the Rover-BRM turbine was road registetred.
I love the prototypes, their outragious power, noise and fury and sheer drama but I can't help thinking that it is they that should have their own race with the 'big one' returning to a roadable format.
It would be just as exciting as the cars in percentage terms would not be that much slower than the are now but it would be more relavant to more manufacturers and it would make my daydreams, and probably yours, seem slightly more accessible. Who knows racing might just improve the breed.
Edited to change bread for breed, must have my lunch immediately!
>> Edited by gnomesmith on Monday 12th January 14:26
The race was started as an endurance race for sports cars, there was even a regulation that required a hood to be errected for a set number of laps and a standard box had to be capable of being carried to show luggage carrying potential.
It seems logical to me that sports cars should be roadable, look at the C & D Type Jaguars that drove to the circuit from Coventry, the various Ferraris that could be seen on the road, the Cobras and even the GT40, I've been overtaken by a 250LM and a number of GT40s on the M4 and we all know what a Le Mans Cobra did on the M1. It doesn't require much of a knowledge of motorsport to remember how well the very roadable MGBs went at La Sarthe. Even the Rover-BRM turbine was road registetred.
I love the prototypes, their outragious power, noise and fury and sheer drama but I can't help thinking that it is they that should have their own race with the 'big one' returning to a roadable format.
It would be just as exciting as the cars in percentage terms would not be that much slower than the are now but it would be more relavant to more manufacturers and it would make my daydreams, and probably yours, seem slightly more accessible. Who knows racing might just improve the breed.
Edited to change bread for breed, must have my lunch immediately!
>> Edited by gnomesmith on Monday 12th January 14:26
Racefan_uk said:
[quote=BCA] Even though TVR are the only manufacturers to produce race cars so close to thier road cars...
Frankly, that's utter bull****. The race spec TVR's bare little resemblense to the road version. The Porsche GT3 (R,RS,RSR) is the closest thing to the road car, that's why they've built the latest incarnation of the RS for the road, with maybe the Morgan Aero 8 being the next.
You are having a laugh arent you? IF you wave enough cash at Peter wheeler he will be more than happy to supply you with a FULL LE MANS RACE SPEC car with number plates. You would be mad, but it can be done, even in the most road biased spec it still uses the same construction and looks like te lemans car (sans wing)
The prosche GT3 RS is no-where near the Le Mans cars even from an aesthetic point of view. Where the morgan idea has come from is beyond me, if anything after TVR I would suggest the Zonda is pretty close to standard mechanically.
>> Edited by BCA on Tuesday 13th January 21:54
gnomesmith said:
Where the morgan idea has come from is beyond me
Can you explain please, a little too obscure for me to understand.
The ukracefan person said that next closest car to road spec other than the porsche was the morgan Aero 8. I couldnt see how that was close to the road car other than looks alone - I wasnt sure where he got the idea that they were close came from. Apologies for any obscurity - its been a loooooong week
From a TVR owner I expect as much...
However, have you seen all of the GTO (N-GT) spec cars up close, I mean both road and race versions? I have, on many many occasions and have been involved with a number and the TVR race version is a great deal different to the road version. And I don't think Peter Wheeler would build you a Le Mans spec car for the road. He has too much pride in his product for that.
The Morgan 'idea' comes form the race chassis being the same as the road car and very little development work over its first 12 months in competition. It has evolved a great deal since its launch two years ago. The Porsche arguement is water tight however. The road car versions of the RS and the GT3 were built for homologation purposes, something TVR have always struggled with a little, although they have finally broken the back of that for the Le Mans entry.
However, have you seen all of the GTO (N-GT) spec cars up close, I mean both road and race versions? I have, on many many occasions and have been involved with a number and the TVR race version is a great deal different to the road version. And I don't think Peter Wheeler would build you a Le Mans spec car for the road. He has too much pride in his product for that.
The Morgan 'idea' comes form the race chassis being the same as the road car and very little development work over its first 12 months in competition. It has evolved a great deal since its launch two years ago. The Porsche arguement is water tight however. The road car versions of the RS and the GT3 were built for homologation purposes, something TVR have always struggled with a little, although they have finally broken the back of that for the Le Mans entry.
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