C+C wanted, 1st track day pics...
Discussion
Evening all,
heres a few pics i took at donington the other thursday at a track day, was the first time ive actually got out to see some action since i brought the camera in December. C+C please, almost all pics were taken with an old 300mm lense, the closer pics of the 250GTO were taken with either the kit 18-70mm or a 50mm prime i aquired like i did the 300mm.
thanks in advance
Matt
heres a few pics i took at donington the other thursday at a track day, was the first time ive actually got out to see some action since i brought the camera in December. C+C please, almost all pics were taken with an old 300mm lense, the closer pics of the 250GTO were taken with either the kit 18-70mm or a 50mm prime i aquired like i did the 300mm.
thanks in advance
Matt
The Tea Boy said:
Evening all,
heres a few pics i took at donington the other thursday at a track day, was the first time ive actually got out to see some action since i brought the camera in December. C+C please, almost all pics were taken with an old 300mm lense, the closer pics of the 250GTO were taken with either the kit 18-70mm or a 50mm prime i aquired like i did the 300mm.
thanks in advance
Matt
Like this one a lot!heres a few pics i took at donington the other thursday at a track day, was the first time ive actually got out to see some action since i brought the camera in December. C+C please, almost all pics were taken with an old 300mm lense, the closer pics of the 250GTO were taken with either the kit 18-70mm or a 50mm prime i aquired like i did the 300mm.
thanks in advance
Matt
Did you take in RAW so you can blend two exposures and bring the colour of the sky back in?
LaSarthe+Back said:
The Tea Boy said:
Evening all,
heres a few pics i took at donington the other thursday at a track day, was the first time ive actually got out to see some action since i brought the camera in December. C+C please, almost all pics were taken with an old 300mm lense, the closer pics of the 250GTO were taken with either the kit 18-70mm or a 50mm prime i aquired like i did the 300mm.
thanks in advance
Matt
Like this one a lot!heres a few pics i took at donington the other thursday at a track day, was the first time ive actually got out to see some action since i brought the camera in December. C+C please, almost all pics were taken with an old 300mm lense, the closer pics of the 250GTO were taken with either the kit 18-70mm or a 50mm prime i aquired like i did the 300mm.
thanks in advance
Matt
Did you take in RAW so you can blend two exposures and bring the colour of the sky back in?
Thanks for the feed back so far!
I did try some panning and it was disasterous so didnt bother to keep them! Lol
Regards
Matty
The Tea Boy said:
I did try some panning and it was disasterous so didnt bother to keep them! Lol
How so ?Panning is about technique and camera set up.
Stick the camera in shutter priority (S) mode, at about 1/250th to begin with.
Put the camera on AF-C (continuous autofocus) so as you pan the lens will try and focus on the car as it gets closer
Follow the car through the view finder and squeeze the shutter to take the shot.
Practice, practice, practice. If you're not that steady of hand then a cheap monopod can help enormously. Indeed, when you have a heavy camera / lens you really need one to reduce shake, even with lenses with Vibration Reduction fitted.
Pixel-Snapper said:
Matt...
Let me know when your going down again and i'll see if i can pop down with you and give you soon pointers....
ow by the way the jags lush..
Matt, ben and i are planning on going again this thursday, if your free and then a hoon into derbyshire + get some shots of bens car so panning is on the agenda! Let me know when your going down again and i'll see if i can pop down with you and give you soon pointers....
ow by the way the jags lush..
Edited by Pixel-Snapper on Monday 14th September 16:12
Nick M said:
The Tea Boy said:
I did try some panning and it was disasterous so didnt bother to keep them! Lol
How so ?Panning is about technique and camera set up.
Stick the camera in shutter priority (S) mode, at about 1/250th to begin with.
Put the camera on AF-C (continuous autofocus) so as you pan the lens will try and focus on the car as it gets closer
Follow the car through the view finder and squeeze the shutter to take the shot.
Practice, practice, practice. If you're not that steady of hand then a cheap monopod can help enormously. Indeed, when you have a heavy camera / lens you really need one to reduce shake, even with lenses with Vibration Reduction fitted.
Quick silver said:
Actually I would suggest the exact opposite........Ap priority (servo) with as little DoP as you've got, then adjust up the stops for wheel blur accordingly & as Nick suggests, you'll have to get used to panning & lots practice is the only way forward.
DoP ?And your reference to Ap priority (servo) ? I get the Ap(erture) priority bit, but the servo ? My recollection is that 'servo' is a Canon term to continuous AF. Just wanted to clarify because, when I read your post, I couldn't immediately figure out what you were suggesting.
Sorry.
Incidentally, to get wheel blur, the aperture you're suggesting would likely result in a shutter speed around the one I suggested. The only difference with my approach is the consistency of shutter speed from one shot to the next, making them more comparable. If a picture is fuzzy then camera shake is more likely to have played a part for example.
With Aperture priority the camera can shift the shutter speed up or down, depending on the exposure (if a cloud passes over it will slow the shutter speed, and make it quicker if you get a bit of sun) so the technique of learning how to pan might be confused by those variations. Was camera shake a product of the user or the slow shutter speed the camera had selected ?
Just a thought.
hi again all,
when i was 'trying' to do the paning shots i was in 'A' mode with the auto focus set up but i think being so close to the cars (on the pit wall) didnt help as th distances varied greatly, i agee that in hindsight 'S' mode would have been a much better idea, but as you have all said its down to practice, so im off to practice again on Thursday with V15ben and will report back with the results.
Regards
Matt
when i was 'trying' to do the paning shots i was in 'A' mode with the auto focus set up but i think being so close to the cars (on the pit wall) didnt help as th distances varied greatly, i agee that in hindsight 'S' mode would have been a much better idea, but as you have all said its down to practice, so im off to practice again on Thursday with V15ben and will report back with the results.
Regards
Matt
Nick M said:
Quick silver said:
Actually I would suggest the exact opposite........Ap priority (servo) with as little DoP as you've got, then adjust up the stops for wheel blur accordingly & as Nick suggests, you'll have to get used to panning & lots practice is the only way forward.
DoP ?And your reference to Ap priority (servo) ? I get the Ap(erture) priority bit, but the servo ? My recollection is that 'servo' is a Canon term to continuous AF. Just wanted to clarify because, when I read your post, I couldn't immediately figure out what you were suggesting.
Sorry.
Incidentally, to get wheel blur, the aperture you're suggesting would likely result in a shutter speed around the one I suggested. The only difference with my approach is the consistency of shutter speed from one shot to the next, making them more comparable. If a picture is fuzzy then camera shake is more likely to have played a part for example.
With Aperture priority the camera can shift the shutter speed up or down, depending on the exposure (if a cloud passes over it will slow the shutter speed, and make it quicker if you get a bit of sun) so the technique of learning how to pan might be confused by those variations. Was camera shake a product of the user or the slow shutter speed the camera had selected ?
Just a thought.
(2) AP = Aperture Priority
(3) Soz for assuming Canon, but in my defence there's no reference to which camera the OP was using.
(4) re; your suggested shutter speed v wheel blur - depends entirely on how big an aperature you have.
(5) AP with as little DoF as possible with some evidence of motion......nobody wants to see what's going on in the background, it's only going to take the eye away from your subject.
Prevous experience includes: 1990-1996 Performance Bikes/Bike Magazine/Back Street Hero's/100% Biker, from 'MotoGP/WSB/BSB' to the 'Bulldog Bash'.........99% of which using E6 'Velvia' 50 asa....more recently with DSLR covering club M/C, Ice Hockey & L2/LOW football.
Quick silver said:
Nick M said:
With Aperture priority the camera can shift the shutter speed up or down, depending on the exposure (if a cloud passes over it will slow the shutter speed, and make it quicker if you get a bit of sun) so the technique of learning how to pan might be confused by those variations. Was camera shake a product of the user or the slow shutter speed the camera had selected ?
(3) Soz for assuming Canon, but in my defence there's no reference to which camera the OP was using.(4) re; your suggested shutter speed v wheel blur - depends entirely on how big an aperature you have.
(5) AP with as little DoF as possible with some evidence of motion......nobody wants to see what's going on in the background, it's only going to take the eye away from your subject.
Prevous experience includes: 1990-1996 Performance Bikes/Bike Magazine/Back Street Hero's/100% Biker, from 'MotoGP/WSB/BSB' to the 'Bulldog Bash'.........99% of which using E6 'Velvia' 50 asa....more recently with DSLR covering club M/C, Ice Hockey & L2/LOW football.
re 4, true, and I was making certain assumptions about it not being a particularly dull day.
5 I'm struggling with, only because most DSLRs have a base ISO of more than 50 and more often 200 is the norm, so there's a few stops difference there. To get a shallow DOF (by using a large aperture) *and* convey motion with a slower shutter speed can therefore prove tricky. And on a sunny day, AP will likely yield some quite high shutter speeds, thus making the motion blur tricky.
I get where you're coming from, just that it's sometimes hard to balance all the variables. Also, with a cropped sensor, you don't get as shallow a DOF as with a full-frame sensor, so again, there are compromises built into the 'system'. I wish my camera had a base ISO of 50 as it would give me a lot more freedom with things like you're suggesting.
Oh, and my point (hastily made as I was rushing) about suggesting shutter priority and trying to give some consistency was really to help the learning process - if you're able to keep something constant then you can, hopefully, get a feel for how to pan with the subject to capture it to best effect.
Hope that helps to clarify - wasn't trying to turn it into a pissing contest.
Poor OP - does he know where this is going to lead him, divorced, a red bank balance and a cupboard full of old unused lenses and bodies? As a comment, am I alone in thinking that they are in parts very contrasty? Now as regards AP or SP modes, surely one equals the other; I use AP mode purely to control the DOF and keep an eye on the shutter speed and adjust the ISO to compensate since I find with the D3 that it is so good up to 6500 ISO that I can get away with it. the little gem he's got there in his kit is the 18/70 which for the money is a steal but the problem is the f3.5/5.6 as far as DOF is concerned. I'm totally with Nick on the panning technique but I'm not sure he has the right lens for that at the moment. An "old 300" he says - which is too long for pit lane work and an 18/70 leaves a big hole; I tend to stick the 70/200 on for those kind of situations. See where this is leading with you bank balance OP?
Nice shots for a first attempt op! For corner shots, stick the camera on manual (it's the only way you learn in my opinion), ISO100-200, 1/125-1/400sec, and f/whatever suits the light/conditions. A lot is down to the lens, and I know nothing about the 300mm you have. If you are really keen on motorsport it's worthwhile splashing out on a 70-200 for example.
These are shot with the 70-200f2.8 IS and 100-400. Clicky each shot to see the exif if you like.
Panning/motsport does take a lot of practice, I rememeber when I first started, was lucky to get 2 out of 10 shots that were worth keeping. It's the other way around now.
These are shot with the 70-200f2.8 IS and 100-400. Clicky each shot to see the exif if you like.
Panning/motsport does take a lot of practice, I rememeber when I first started, was lucky to get 2 out of 10 shots that were worth keeping. It's the other way around now.
Edited by 4hero on Tuesday 15th September 09:24
4hero said:
Nice shots for a first attempt op! For corner shots, stick the camera on manual (it's the only way you learn in my opinion), ISO100-200, 1/125-1/400sec, and f/whatever suits the light/conditions. A lot is down to the lens, and I know nothing about the 300mm you have. If you are really keen on motorsport it's worthwhile splashing out on a 70-200 for example.
These are shot with the 70-200f2.8 IS and 100-400. Clicky each shot to see the exif if you like.
Nice shot of the VW........I know they're not cars but to give an idea of what I meant by as little DoF as possible, here's a few I took from inside the 'Melbourne Loop' at the British Moto GP @ Donington 1994:These are shot with the 70-200f2.8 IS and 100-400. Clicky each shot to see the exif if you like.
John Kocinski - Cagiva 500
Ralph Waldman - Honda 250
ETA: Sorry - no EXIF as scanned from Fuji Velvia.
Edited by Quick silver on Tuesday 15th September 12:15
Matt,
Not sure how much practice you will get from Donington these days - you may need to investigate Mallory instead. You can get very close to the action at Mallory and work with the kit lens yet fill the frame.
I'm not sure what the Sony's capabilities are in terms of Auto focus and other useful stuff like that. However, as you found, the idea of panning on the straight is extremely challenging, especially off the pit wall at Donington. Even more especially since the debris fencing was installed a year or so back. Personally I would start somewhere else. The inside of a fairly constant radius corner is a good place. A few examples taken at that sort of location and posted above are excellent and clearly demonstrate the potential. It means the subject is moving at a relatively consistent speed and you can practice following it and 'filling' the frame. Forget slower shutter speeds for now. Stick it on Tv, 1/1000th (or higher) if there is enough light, and see what you get.
You are familiar with Donington so somewhere like the inside of Redgate and using the 300 lens would be a great place to practice. Or the grandstand at the entrance to the pit lane - that works at 300mm - more or less. But probably not for the next few months (or ever in the case of the grandstand ....
)
Note that you will get very little background blur at 1/1000th and depth of field will be deep. You might want shallow eventually, but let's start somewhere that should give you a nice hit rate.
Unless you have a very 'fast' lens and can use it wide open you are always going to be struggling to get a blurred, out of focus background with a small sensor (smaller than 'Full Frame') camera. Don't worry about it. If you have a 3 or 4 grand spare you can fix that problem, but if not just don't worry about it.
There are 2 basic ways to get experience and enjoy less background detail in your shots.
One is to get closer to the action which will, for a given lens/sensor combination, give a shallower depth of field for the same lens aperture. (f-stop). Mallory Park allows you to try this at 2 or three places that are far less challenging for pan shots than the pit straight at Donington. You would not require the 300mm lens either.
The other basic method is to use a slower shutter speed when panning - say 1/160th or less. Sometimes MUCH less - I note that 4hero for example often uses less than 1/60th and gets great results. If you go to that sort of speed, first be confident about your ability to consistently frame the subject as you pan and make sure you have everything going for you on terms of how you can move as you pan. A tight jacket or camera bag over one shoulder can be real pan success killers.
If you can get to the point where most of what is behind the subject is blurred by motion then the depth of field issue pretty much goes away and your subject will present in the frame without background distractions. (Subject to what the blurred background actually is of course ... and how near it is to the subject.)
If you are using AF you will get what the camera can offer. If you are also using anti-shake there may be a specially panning mode so that the camera does not try to compensate for the pan movement but WILL adjust for vertical 'shake'
If you are on the inside of a constant radius curve you could focus manually on the point where the subject USUALLY positions and set that distance and just leave it like that relying on some DoF to give you acceptable sharpness if the drivers stray a little off line. (or you could try manual focus adjustments as you shoot but how well that works may depend on the lens/viewfinder combination.)
You could also try it on the outside of the curve or somewhere with no constant radius depending upon your level of masochistic tendency on the day.
As for success rates - I guess it's a bit like a golf swing. Absent practice the results will be mostly poor. With practice they may improve but nothing is guaranteed. It's a lot easier to get 'into the swing' with a short lens (kit lens?) and then transfer the new skill to the longer lenses.
I have left a lot of significant stuff out of this note, some of which is covered by others above (or alluded to) but for now I suggest you just keep it simple until you start to get results you are happy with and then work new things out from there.
HTH.
Grant
Not sure how much practice you will get from Donington these days - you may need to investigate Mallory instead. You can get very close to the action at Mallory and work with the kit lens yet fill the frame.
I'm not sure what the Sony's capabilities are in terms of Auto focus and other useful stuff like that. However, as you found, the idea of panning on the straight is extremely challenging, especially off the pit wall at Donington. Even more especially since the debris fencing was installed a year or so back. Personally I would start somewhere else. The inside of a fairly constant radius corner is a good place. A few examples taken at that sort of location and posted above are excellent and clearly demonstrate the potential. It means the subject is moving at a relatively consistent speed and you can practice following it and 'filling' the frame. Forget slower shutter speeds for now. Stick it on Tv, 1/1000th (or higher) if there is enough light, and see what you get.
You are familiar with Donington so somewhere like the inside of Redgate and using the 300 lens would be a great place to practice. Or the grandstand at the entrance to the pit lane - that works at 300mm - more or less. But probably not for the next few months (or ever in the case of the grandstand ....
)Note that you will get very little background blur at 1/1000th and depth of field will be deep. You might want shallow eventually, but let's start somewhere that should give you a nice hit rate.
Unless you have a very 'fast' lens and can use it wide open you are always going to be struggling to get a blurred, out of focus background with a small sensor (smaller than 'Full Frame') camera. Don't worry about it. If you have a 3 or 4 grand spare you can fix that problem, but if not just don't worry about it.
There are 2 basic ways to get experience and enjoy less background detail in your shots.
One is to get closer to the action which will, for a given lens/sensor combination, give a shallower depth of field for the same lens aperture. (f-stop). Mallory Park allows you to try this at 2 or three places that are far less challenging for pan shots than the pit straight at Donington. You would not require the 300mm lens either.
The other basic method is to use a slower shutter speed when panning - say 1/160th or less. Sometimes MUCH less - I note that 4hero for example often uses less than 1/60th and gets great results. If you go to that sort of speed, first be confident about your ability to consistently frame the subject as you pan and make sure you have everything going for you on terms of how you can move as you pan. A tight jacket or camera bag over one shoulder can be real pan success killers.
If you can get to the point where most of what is behind the subject is blurred by motion then the depth of field issue pretty much goes away and your subject will present in the frame without background distractions. (Subject to what the blurred background actually is of course ... and how near it is to the subject.)
If you are using AF you will get what the camera can offer. If you are also using anti-shake there may be a specially panning mode so that the camera does not try to compensate for the pan movement but WILL adjust for vertical 'shake'
If you are on the inside of a constant radius curve you could focus manually on the point where the subject USUALLY positions and set that distance and just leave it like that relying on some DoF to give you acceptable sharpness if the drivers stray a little off line. (or you could try manual focus adjustments as you shoot but how well that works may depend on the lens/viewfinder combination.)
You could also try it on the outside of the curve or somewhere with no constant radius depending upon your level of masochistic tendency on the day.
As for success rates - I guess it's a bit like a golf swing. Absent practice the results will be mostly poor. With practice they may improve but nothing is guaranteed. It's a lot easier to get 'into the swing' with a short lens (kit lens?) and then transfer the new skill to the longer lenses.
I have left a lot of significant stuff out of this note, some of which is covered by others above (or alluded to) but for now I suggest you just keep it simple until you start to get results you are happy with and then work new things out from there.
HTH.
Grant
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