How would a big power Vette in UK cope with tracti
Discussion
How would a big power Vette in the UK cope with traction? (Couldn't fit title). Same goes for Vipers really (or Supras, so input from Viper owners would be welcome).
I say would because there are no big power Vettes in the UK yet for reasons which I understand (and are out of my control) apart from one drag Vette running 7s (which has devices that can't be used on the street, but then that car isn't designed for the street) and a few others, and ZR1427's car.
I say UK because, unlike the USA, our dragstrips are noway near as good as theirs (but then the drag scene over there is huge, and our drag strips, and airfields such as Elvington, don't provide as much friction/traction), and drag slicks can't be used in events like TOTB, whereas drag slicks can be used at events in the USA. So those two options are not available.
So any ideas? Surely some people here struggle with traction - theres lots of big RWD cars in the UK which are capable of running low 10s/high 9s, have good parts which work well with each other, car (and parts) are reliable, a good driver, etc, but they only run 12s (in the UK) - gives rise to ignorant comments like a 4WD car needs less power to match the times of a more powerful RWD car. RWD is like a bottleneck - someone owns a fast car, but the only thing that is stopping them from running the most optimum time is RWD and traction (or lack of). Even stranger is that some big power cars which are 4WD and designed for drag are converted to RWD - but then they would race on the best drag strips, and with drag slicks.
Any ideas? Only ideas I know are launch control, most sticky tires (other than purpose-built drag tires), careful weight distribution, and a few other devices (and I've forgotten a few) - but even the big power RWD cars in the UK struggle to get any traction.
I say would because there are no big power Vettes in the UK yet for reasons which I understand (and are out of my control) apart from one drag Vette running 7s (which has devices that can't be used on the street, but then that car isn't designed for the street) and a few others, and ZR1427's car.
I say UK because, unlike the USA, our dragstrips are noway near as good as theirs (but then the drag scene over there is huge, and our drag strips, and airfields such as Elvington, don't provide as much friction/traction), and drag slicks can't be used in events like TOTB, whereas drag slicks can be used at events in the USA. So those two options are not available.
So any ideas? Surely some people here struggle with traction - theres lots of big RWD cars in the UK which are capable of running low 10s/high 9s, have good parts which work well with each other, car (and parts) are reliable, a good driver, etc, but they only run 12s (in the UK) - gives rise to ignorant comments like a 4WD car needs less power to match the times of a more powerful RWD car. RWD is like a bottleneck - someone owns a fast car, but the only thing that is stopping them from running the most optimum time is RWD and traction (or lack of). Even stranger is that some big power cars which are 4WD and designed for drag are converted to RWD - but then they would race on the best drag strips, and with drag slicks.
Any ideas? Only ideas I know are launch control, most sticky tires (other than purpose-built drag tires), careful weight distribution, and a few other devices (and I've forgotten a few) - but even the big power RWD cars in the UK struggle to get any traction.
b f goodrich drag radials are the only radials that will attempt to hold that back , the only time the pod is good is on a big meet or some test days , you could run a big number if the conditions are right.If you are any thing like us 2nd gear off the throttle only is still a waste of time i dont think that all the guys in the states run big numbers all the time but they do have proper tuning dynos and loads of track time over us.
You say that the tracks here arent as good as the US, and other parts in the world.
Yet, the proper drag cars still run 5s here, and in a small few cases, less than 5.
From my own experience, Elvington is grippier than Santa Pod, although I only got across to each venue once last year.
As for tyres. BF Drag Radials are road legal, and from what I have read the grippiest street legal trye about. Steve Scotts Cosworth power Focus ran 10.9 an Santa Pod with them on it.
Another guy, Danny B who works for hauser racing, who posts on Passion Ford, has achieve a 1.67s 60ft time with his cossie. It has only around 360bhp according to him, but runs 12.2 @ 114mph and the Pod. I think this was on street legal tryes, but his car is fitted with a live axle/ladder bar arrangement. It was featured in A Ford magazine a few months back.
So Im not totally convinced the tracks here are slippy. They may not be quite as good, due to the weather, but Im sure most cars will have some scope for improvement themselves on any track.
There are a number of sticky tyres available. Its a bummer to have to buy them, as they dont last very long, but it will help.
www.autospeed.com/cms/A_1883/article.html
www.autospeed.com/cms/A_1883/printArticle.html
The traction my own car gets is pathetic, but hopefully this will change soon. I will be fitting a 8.8" live axle from a Ford T-bird to my Granada. Mounting it with a 5-link arrangement, as per MK2 Escort. It will heve a Torsen diff. I think it should work well.
At present, my best 60ft time is 2.3s, although its still losing traction for about 250-300ft from launch.
I only have 245/45x16 Michelin Pilots though. 1st and 2nd gears are almost useless.
Tyres are one option for grip
Rear suspension geometry is another
Different types of LSD ( id be interested in thoughts about that one )
Weight of car will play a big part too.
Yet, the proper drag cars still run 5s here, and in a small few cases, less than 5.
From my own experience, Elvington is grippier than Santa Pod, although I only got across to each venue once last year.
As for tyres. BF Drag Radials are road legal, and from what I have read the grippiest street legal trye about. Steve Scotts Cosworth power Focus ran 10.9 an Santa Pod with them on it.
Another guy, Danny B who works for hauser racing, who posts on Passion Ford, has achieve a 1.67s 60ft time with his cossie. It has only around 360bhp according to him, but runs 12.2 @ 114mph and the Pod. I think this was on street legal tryes, but his car is fitted with a live axle/ladder bar arrangement. It was featured in A Ford magazine a few months back.
So Im not totally convinced the tracks here are slippy. They may not be quite as good, due to the weather, but Im sure most cars will have some scope for improvement themselves on any track.
There are a number of sticky tyres available. Its a bummer to have to buy them, as they dont last very long, but it will help.
www.autospeed.com/cms/A_1883/article.html
www.autospeed.com/cms/A_1883/printArticle.html
The traction my own car gets is pathetic, but hopefully this will change soon. I will be fitting a 8.8" live axle from a Ford T-bird to my Granada. Mounting it with a 5-link arrangement, as per MK2 Escort. It will heve a Torsen diff. I think it should work well.
At present, my best 60ft time is 2.3s, although its still losing traction for about 250-300ft from launch.
I only have 245/45x16 Michelin Pilots though. 1st and 2nd gears are almost useless.
Tyres are one option for grip
Rear suspension geometry is another
Different types of LSD ( id be interested in thoughts about that one )
Weight of car will play a big part too.
Thanks for that - interesting thoughts.
"You say that the tracks here arent as good as the US, and other parts in the world.
Yet, the proper drag cars still run 5s here, and in a small few cases, less than 5."
I only mentioned the USA, not other parts of the world.
"From my own experience, Elvington is grippier than Santa Pod, although I only got across to each venue once last year."
My opinions must be skewed because of what I've read (I can't take a powerful car to Pod or Elvington and drag race it as I'm 17). I'm aware that is better for me to think for mysellf and test things myself, instead of reading sujective opinions.
FWIW, I forgot to mention that all factors (weather, track temp) are optimum, and any comparative factors, would be equal. You mentioned weather, but hot weather helps with traction, but also robs engine power? What would the best temp be?
>> Edited by z064life on Saturday 3rd January 17:48
>> Edited by z064life on Saturday 3rd January 17:49
"You say that the tracks here arent as good as the US, and other parts in the world.
Yet, the proper drag cars still run 5s here, and in a small few cases, less than 5."
I only mentioned the USA, not other parts of the world.
"From my own experience, Elvington is grippier than Santa Pod, although I only got across to each venue once last year."
My opinions must be skewed because of what I've read (I can't take a powerful car to Pod or Elvington and drag race it as I'm 17). I'm aware that is better for me to think for mysellf and test things myself, instead of reading sujective opinions.
FWIW, I forgot to mention that all factors (weather, track temp) are optimum, and any comparative factors, would be equal. You mentioned weather, but hot weather helps with traction, but also robs engine power? What would the best temp be?
>> Edited by z064life on Saturday 3rd January 17:48
>> Edited by z064life on Saturday 3rd January 17:49
you can rwyb at santa pod at 17 if its a full licence and compete with a rac racing licence at 16 .Santa pod if its not damp in the air has the best surface outside USA the only reason its slippy is the glue they spray on the surface gets damp , its as slipply as hell. On a dry day with sun and fresh glue and some heat from the jet heater it is better than most tracks in the USA and not far short of a NHRA track,it also has the fastest top fuel pass outside the USA of 4.76 @ well over 300mph so if you have the right tune, tyres, air, track prep,driving skills you should run stateside numbers .{no question}
How about these thoughts.
1. In drag racing, the tire size to use is based on 15 inch diameter. This allows the sidewall to flex and absorb shock, and the tire grips better. Most people who seriously drag their street cars have 15 inch (rear)tires for the track.
2. Depending on the exact design, most independant rear suspensions are not as effective for drag racing as a "straight axle" rear suspension.
3. You already mentioned street legal drag tires, like the BFG, which is much better in the 15 inch size. In most cases, lower tire pressure helps.
4. If you have lots of power, the rear suspension should be modified in some way to transfer the energy to the chassis (traction bars?). This helps in stability, and helps hold the tires on the ground (less hop). Also more effective if the differential is locked. A locked differential not only makes the grip better, but it also keeps the car straight when there is little or no weight on the steering wheels, and transfers the power a measurable amount quicker than a "limited slip" differential, which takes a fraction of a second to lock up.
Another thing that is a personal opinion is practice, to get the best 60' times. This is possibly an issue if the car is powerful enough to have a special track setup, but is driven on the streets as well. Its easier to "practice" (though maybe not legal!) in a car that drives on the street in the same configuration as it races on the track. That's just an observation, but I thought it might be interesting.
I am curious about earlier comments about the conditions of the tracks. Here most all drag strips are purpose built, including the ones out West that are laid over old airfield runways. I would assume that yours are also. If not then you are absolutely right that the track condition would affect a more powerful car (faster car) much more than a less powerful. It would certainly have the effect of bringing the cars' performance closer together.
Regards, Art in Baton Rouge, LA, USA
1. In drag racing, the tire size to use is based on 15 inch diameter. This allows the sidewall to flex and absorb shock, and the tire grips better. Most people who seriously drag their street cars have 15 inch (rear)tires for the track.
2. Depending on the exact design, most independant rear suspensions are not as effective for drag racing as a "straight axle" rear suspension.
3. You already mentioned street legal drag tires, like the BFG, which is much better in the 15 inch size. In most cases, lower tire pressure helps.
4. If you have lots of power, the rear suspension should be modified in some way to transfer the energy to the chassis (traction bars?). This helps in stability, and helps hold the tires on the ground (less hop). Also more effective if the differential is locked. A locked differential not only makes the grip better, but it also keeps the car straight when there is little or no weight on the steering wheels, and transfers the power a measurable amount quicker than a "limited slip" differential, which takes a fraction of a second to lock up.
Another thing that is a personal opinion is practice, to get the best 60' times. This is possibly an issue if the car is powerful enough to have a special track setup, but is driven on the streets as well. Its easier to "practice" (though maybe not legal!) in a car that drives on the street in the same configuration as it races on the track. That's just an observation, but I thought it might be interesting.
I am curious about earlier comments about the conditions of the tracks. Here most all drag strips are purpose built, including the ones out West that are laid over old airfield runways. I would assume that yours are also. If not then you are absolutely right that the track condition would affect a more powerful car (faster car) much more than a less powerful. It would certainly have the effect of bringing the cars' performance closer together.
Regards, Art in Baton Rouge, LA, USA
blown5.0 said:
you can rwyb at santa pod at 17 if its a full licence and compete with a rac racing licence at 16 .Santa pod if its not damp in the air has the best surface outside USA the only reason its slippy is the glue they spray on the surface gets damp , its as slipply as hell. On a dry day with sun and fresh glue and some heat from the jet heater it is better than most tracks in the USA and not far short of a NHRA track,it also has the fastest top fuel pass outside the USA of 4.76 @ well over 300mph so if you have the right tune, tyres, air, track prep,driving skills you should run stateside numbers .{no question}
Oh really?
I wouldn't be racing @ 17 - I haven't driven a car, and it would be wise for me to get the hang of driving a low powered car, and making my way up the ladder through more and more powerful cars.
You can drive/race pretty much anything at Run What Ya Brungs..
Santa Pod is about the only purpose built Drag Strip in the UK. I think all the rest are old airfields/runways.
When I was at Santa Pod at the end of October, the track was very slippy in the morning. It did seem to get better through the day, but unfortunately I never got a chance, as doing a burnout for my 3rd run, I broke a driveshaft.
The previous 2 runs saw me still losing traction well through 3rd gear.
Elvington is a very rough surface, and I found it quite good. Id also think it wouldnt be as badly affected by the weather.
Santa Pod is about the only purpose built Drag Strip in the UK. I think all the rest are old airfields/runways.
When I was at Santa Pod at the end of October, the track was very slippy in the morning. It did seem to get better through the day, but unfortunately I never got a chance, as doing a burnout for my 3rd run, I broke a driveshaft.
The previous 2 runs saw me still losing traction well through 3rd gear.
Elvington is a very rough surface, and I found it quite good. Id also think it wouldnt be as badly affected by the weather.
ZR1991 said:
How about these thoughts.
1. In drag racing, the tire size to use is based on 15 inch diameter. This allows the sidewall to flex and absorb shock, and the tire grips better. Most people who seriously drag their street cars have 15 inch (rear)tires for the track.
Regards, Art in Baton Rouge, LA, USA
Ive noticed that in the states they used the smaller wheel over stock,,now i know why
Traction has always been the limiting factor for my '98 Camaro Z28. Instead of revving and going, you have to roll it off the line and then stamp on the throttle once you've got some rolling grip. That has limited my quarter mile to 13.8 at 105 but consider this. The car ran 13.88 when I bought it and the addition of control arms and bigger sway bars and lowering it has only gained me 8/100ths of a second.
You can import some drag radials and get much better times but I'll be trying some 275/35 x 18's this year to see if they'll grip better than the stock 245/50 x 16's.
Traction control is a no-no on the Chevy as it kicks the throttle back at you and cuts the power. A more sophisticated system might help but not this one.
You can import some drag radials and get much better times but I'll be trying some 275/35 x 18's this year to see if they'll grip better than the stock 245/50 x 16's.
Traction control is a no-no on the Chevy as it kicks the throttle back at you and cuts the power. A more sophisticated system might help but not this one.
Traction control is a no-no on the Chevy as it kicks the throttle back at you and cuts the power. A more sophisticated system might help but not this one.
I agree - traction control is only limiting what power is available, by, er, limiting it lol and not actually creating traction. Can't a driver just use their foot and depress the gas pedal to a certain amount - that would be like traction control no?
I agree - traction control is only limiting what power is available, by, er, limiting it lol and not actually creating traction. Can't a driver just use their foot and depress the gas pedal to a certain amount - that would be like traction control no?
Using your right foot, is only practical if power delivery is very smooth.
On a turbocharged car, it is much harder, as even on small throttle openings, it can produce a lot of power/torque. No matter what I do on my car 1st and 2nd grears it always breaks tracion when trying to launch. Even if I roll off the line, touch the pedal...a bit of boost, and it breaks traction again.
As for traction control. Apparently this system is very good.
www.racelogic.co.uk/traction.htm
On a turbocharged car, it is much harder, as even on small throttle openings, it can produce a lot of power/torque. No matter what I do on my car 1st and 2nd grears it always breaks tracion when trying to launch. Even if I roll off the line, touch the pedal...a bit of boost, and it breaks traction again.
As for traction control. Apparently this system is very good.
www.racelogic.co.uk/traction.htm
Not quite sure what the point of this posting is?
There is a 65 Corvette funny car driven by a woman (think her name is Sue Jackson) and that is probably the fastest drag racing corvette in the UK.
The car is road legal (I think), but not exactly a daily driver.
If you want better traction you fitted bigger softer rear tyres. It is a no brainer.
There is a 65 Corvette funny car driven by a woman (think her name is Sue Jackson) and that is probably the fastest drag racing corvette in the UK.
The car is road legal (I think), but not exactly a daily driver.
If you want better traction you fitted bigger softer rear tyres. It is a no brainer.
A no brainer ?? What if you already have the largest tyres you can get ? You cant always use proper slicks either, so its not that simple.
Tyres are one option, but there are other ways to get traction. Making sure the tyre is in contact with the ground, suspension geometry that forces the tyres onto the ground under acceleration ( forces the weight of the car onto the driving axle, assisting traction ). Making sure there is no axle tramp/wheel hop. Gearing possibly. Different diffs. As said, a locked diff may be a good option, but not really practical for the road. Most LSD's allow a good bit of slip, before driving the gripping wheel, so again room for improvement there.
The torsen I will be using, on slippage transfers drive to the other wheel, so in theory should offer very good traction.
Tyres are one option, but there are other ways to get traction. Making sure the tyre is in contact with the ground, suspension geometry that forces the tyres onto the ground under acceleration ( forces the weight of the car onto the driving axle, assisting traction ). Making sure there is no axle tramp/wheel hop. Gearing possibly. Different diffs. As said, a locked diff may be a good option, but not really practical for the road. Most LSD's allow a good bit of slip, before driving the gripping wheel, so again room for improvement there.
The torsen I will be using, on slippage transfers drive to the other wheel, so in theory should offer very good traction.
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