Buying new tyres

[Loudman]

All,

I need a new set of rubber on my rears for my S2 111S, currently running OEM Bridgestone Potenza RE040 225/45 R17 90W

I think I'd rather stick with the same tyres, but I'm no expert and find it a bit confusing. Black Circles website, which has been recommended to me by a very knowledgeable mate, has RE040 but only in either 91Y or 91Z spec, does this matter? If so how is the best way to get some new tyres? I live in Derby if that makes any difference.

[Lawrence5]

Just a higher speed rating.... is the price different ?

[Loudman]

Only a couple of quid

[boomshanks]

I need a couple of rear tyres for my 111R and after reading a number of threads on here, I think I'll be going for the Toyo Proxes TR1s. Camskill seemed cheapest, so I was planning on getting from there. Can anyone confirm that these:

http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php?plid=m4b103...

are the right ones? They are the right size, but it's the speed and load rating that I'm not sure of (XL TL ?). I seem to remember that one manufacturer puts the "LOT" code on to identify Lotus suitable tyres, is it TOYO?

Thanks

PS Sorry for railroading your thread...

[Stu_00]

The OEM tyre is the yokohama Advan AD07 (LOT) as fitted to Elise 06 Model year cars to date.

As yours is an O6 if it the 06 MY e.g. LED lights etc then your have AD07's if not your have Bridgestone's.

I would not recommend the Toyo's for the Elise, the sidewalls are not as stiff as the OEM advan's (so I am led to Believe).

AD07's are available through your dealer, around 300 for rear set (fitted) or Eliseparts or Hanger 111.

Hope that helps, plus the Ad07's are the best tyres by far! (for the 111R)

[boomshanks]

Thanks for the advice, mine is a 2006 registered, but pre 2006 face lift version, so has bridgestones as standard.

I'll look at the tyres you mentioned. That is nearly twice the price, but worth it if they are better.

Thanks.

b

[Stu_00]

boomshanks said:

Thanks for the advice, mine is a 2006 registered, but pre 2006 face lift version, so has bridgestones as standard.

I'll look at the tyres you mentioned. That is nearly twice the price, but worth it if they are better.

Thanks.

b

No problems, If you going for the AD07's your probably be better matching up the fronts too.

If you dont wont to do that I would stick to the Bridgestone's IMO!

Edited by Stu_00 on Monday 13th July 16:36

[bordseye]

boomshanks said:

That is nearly twice the price, but worth it if they are better.

But the question is - are they better? Or is this just a tie in deal that gets Ltus the OE tyres cheap in return for specifying only the Yokos. I dont know but that sort of deal is just what manufacturers do do.

Cant see them lasting twice as long (my rears have done just 9k of relatively gentle use) and the grip isnt a league different.

Doies anyone have any hard facts. Like what difference do the various options do to track times - as an indicator of grip. And what difference is there in wear rate from people who have tried both?

Edited by bordseye on Monday 13th July 18:37

[Stu_00]

Interesting point, Still not seen anyone running the T1R's on the Elise Yet, would be interesting but I would second guess that the wet/dry grip and sidewall stiffness is superior on the AD07's. But would love to know if this is true.

[F.C.]

Stu_00 said:

Interesting point, Still not seen anyone running the T1R's on the Elise Yet, would be interesting but I would second guess that the wet/dry grip and sidewall stiffness is superior on the AD07's. But would love to know if this is true.

Be careful quoting tyre wall stiffness as better wet / dry performance, "normally"
a softer sidewall is more forgiving for wet use as it helps feel at the limits of adhesion and not let go suddenly like a harder sidewall tyre, like for like tread and compound the softer sidewall should prevail in the wet for most people.
The converse is equally true where a stiffer sidewall is "normally" preferred in dry conditions.
F.C.

[Stu_00]

Hi FC thanks for insight, That makes a lot of Sense, So maybe its a case that Lotus and Yokohama have got this Balance right with the AD07 Vs Other makes such as the Toyo...

Wonder if Toyo will give us a set of T1R's to test against the AD07's

[cyberface]

Regarding sidewall stiffness... I have an Exige which came with A048Rs, which have the stiffest sidewalls of any tyres I've used (my previous track tyre favourite was the 888, which feels slightly softer to me). These are no good in the winter so I switch to proper winter tyres (Pirelli Snowsports / Sottozeros). As you'd expect, the winter tyre deliberately has very soft sidewalls and very deep tread, along with a very soft compound and loads of grip.

Obviously some of the performance difference (which is vast) will be due to the deep tread and compound differences, but some will be due to the sidewalls. I can definitely say that the winters make the Exige *very* slidy, as in both ends of the car move about a LOT more. Either that, or I'm aware of it a lot more. It is a hell of a lot easier to control at the limit since the limit comes very slowly, and this applies to both understeer, oversteer and four-wheel drifts. Incredibly predictable and the car is literally twice as comfortable - like the spring ratings have been knocked right down. The 'give' in the tyres, obviously built in to give as much contact as possible on icy surfaces, also makes the car quieter and smoother.

The downside to this smoothing out of the car's handling is the equal smoothing out of reaction speed... it's slower to react. Steering inputs aren't acted on instantaneously, and this makes logical sense given the sidewall's role in communicating turning force from the wheels to the tyre tread. Interestingly, the reduction in sheer reaction speed doesn't make the car harder to control, it's easier at the limit - seems that the increase in progressive slip is larger than the decrease in reaction speed, so you can catch a slide just as fast.

The biggest change is that the car understeers a lot more, though this could be due to the rears being Pirelli's new Sottozero design and the fronts being the existing Snowsport design (one superseded the other, both sizes weren't available in the same type at the time). The Snowsport is a much more 'rounded' tyre, whereas the A048R almost sticks out from the wheel rim like a trapezium - whilst both have the nominal sizing of 195/50R16, the Yoko track tyre looks so fat it may as well be a 215, whereas the winter tyre is more 'traditional' and with the ultra-deep treading at the edges, could be considered 'narrower'. So the understeer may very simply be due to the effects of the Snowsport 'going down a size' rather than anything to do with the sidewalls.

Getting into the car when the winters are swapped for A048Rs is like getting into a race car, the aggressiveness and immediate hit in ride comfort is starkly in-your-face. But equally I love the performance of the track tyres because the whole point of the car is going round corners fast... plenty of less compromised straight-line-speed machinery out there

Whether this can translate to the use of softer sidewalled summer tyres on the Lotus - I'm not sure. I'm sure that my experience is at the extreme end because the winter tyres are more extreme than any of the summer tyres. But I'm sure that some of the 'feel' changes would be the same. If the understeer is a reaction to the stiffness then I'd probably go a size larger on the front (if I was running Toyo T1R, for example) - one thing to be very aware of is that the size printed on the tyre isn't always the width of rubber really on the road - Yokohama take the piss with the A048R and just swapping to another brand could have you thinking that the new brand is significantly inferior in grip, when in fact the tyre has simply got less rubber on the road....

[Mister K]

Any news on toyo r1r tyres?
They look like a copy of yoko advans.

[Stu_00]

Mister K said:

Any news on toyo r1r tyres?
They look like a copy of yoko advans.

That is not the case - 2 very different tyres in both shape and compound

Thanks Cyberface for the comments!

Edited by Stu_00 on Tuesday 14th July 18:14

[andyspiers]

Loudman said:

I need a new set of rubber on my rears for my S2 111S, currently running OEM Bridgestone Potenza RE040 225/45 R17 90W

Make sure you get the ones designed for the Elise: model DCK is for the Elise S2, model CFE is for a VX220 (heavier back-end). I wouldn't worry about the speed rating: they're probably all faster than your car will go.

More info about CFE/DCK here: http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Tyres

I always used Event Mobile tyres when I had my S2 111S: they'll come to you and fit them and don't really charge any extra for doing so. http://www.event-tyres.co.uk/

[boomshanks]

Thanks for all your input - a great help as usual. Event tyres looks great too - they come to me, fit, balance, dispose etc? BRILLIANT!

The advice recieved has made me change my initial view. I think, on the basis that Lotus fitted Bridgestones as standard (and they probably thought about it longer than I have), and the fronts are still fine (the cars only doen 14k miles), I should prob stick to Bridgestones on the rear for now, as suggested (thanks Stu). If I was looking to repace all 4, then I would probably move to the AD07s all round, but it's probably not be the best idea to mismatch.

Thanks again, it looks like I'm off to make a purchase...

B

[Stu_00]

No problem, after reading everything and trusting Hethal recommendations I am ordering some more AD07's to match the front's

Think it is still good idea to go with any LOT recommended tyres.

[kambites]

Can you buy the RE040 LTS from anywhere other than Lotus themselves?

[Mr_C]

The fronts will have gone hard anyway so it may be worth getting a full set of Advans.....

[cyberface]

Stu_00 said:

Thanks Cyberface for the comments!

No probs!

I still think (if you can justify two sets of wheels, or can be arsed to swap tyres on rims every season) that the ultimate performance of the trackday stickies (A048Rs, 888s) is so superb on the Lotus chassis, and suits it down to the ground, that they're *really* worth having in the milder half of the UK year. I also believe that these tyres are, frankly, a bit of a liability in the winter - and sadly the lowest-common-denominator attitude appears to have raised awareness with our unelected legislators in Brussels, with the lightly-treaded trackday stickies being under threat of being banned. Not sure how serious this threat is, of course, but the mere fact that it's made the news suggests that they are being looked at - presumably due to people stacking their cars in the winter whilst shod with inappropriate rubber

As a result, I love the trackday stickies on the road but want to be sensible and still be able to drive the car to have fun in the winter (yeah, you can drive round the limitations of A048Rs in the winter easily enough, but it's like taking a superbike out in the snow. You can do it, but it's hardly fun as intended). I tried a set of 'real' winter tyres many years back after needing them for a racetour to Verbier with my cousin, trying to beat Clarkson's time (as per the Ferrari vs. public transport to Verbier episode, except we weren't staying in the poncy hotel Clarkson did!) and have loved their performance in the UK winters - largely due to the deep tread making light work of standing water and heavy rain. No, we don't get much snow in England, but we get plenty of heavy rain and deep standing water. Winter tyres rock for this.

Of course, not everyone sees things my way and would rather choose an all-season tyre. The S1 community seems to have taken the Kumho Ecsta as a firm favourite - not sure whether this is a cost thing, or whether these tyres really are as good as they say, given their low cost.

However, I'm certainly not one for spending over the odds simply because of the badge - and whilst I like the trackday stickies supplied 'with Lotus approval' on my Exige (i.e. Yokohama A048R) - I had fantastic performance from the Toyo 888s I ran on my VX220 turbo (which had a bit less weight but more torque and power to deal with than my Exige), so am almost certain to choose Toyo 888s over Yoko A048Rs when it comes to change the stickies (soon, as they don't last long - probably after the next trackday).

Anyone here got strong opinions either way re: 888s vs A048Rs on an Exige S? I'd expect the grip to be similar, the response and breakaway to be slightly smoother on the 888, whereas the ultimate reaction-speed to be greatest on the A048R from my experience with both tyres on similar vehicles. Given the huge cost premium for the A048R (and the limited availability), I'm being pushed towards the 888.

Has anyone got any firm reasons why this would be a bad idea? I'm not racing so if the 888s cost me 0.5 sec a lap at Brands Indy then I'll live with it and simply brake a bit later for Paddock (and perhaps learn how to drive a bit better)