If TVR were starting up all over again...........

[Wacky Racer]

Following on from this thread:-

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Just say (hypothetically) you were in charge of TVR, had all the workforce in place, factory units sorted, plenty of funds available, how would you relaunch the brand, being as it is 2009 and not 1985...

How many different models would you introduce?

Would you include convertibles?

Would the engines be manufactured "in house", or bought in Yank V8 lumps?

How much do you think the buying public would be prepared to stump up these days, bearing in mind Cerberas used to sell around 50/55k several years ago.

Would they still be made of Composite material or steel/aluminium?

What basic improvements would you introduce....(bearing in mind several have gone up in smoke recently, do to components igniting under the bonnet, for various reasons)

And finally do you think a market exists for them at all, and if so, could a profit ever be made that would make a decent return on the multi million pound investment?


I would be interested to know what the PH panel think.

[events]

What a great thought!

The TVR convertible design was quite simple but I think you would need at least a fold away hood to stand a chance of selling against other larger brands.

How many models? - you only want one first - but design it to be long lasting - down to the bulb holders & chassis and do it like other larger manufacturers (and what TVR began to do with the Tuscan/ Tamora) design chassis and running gear to be used in various future models to keep cost down.

Engines & gearboxes - has to be bought in at the start. A reliable unit/s - hey what about a diesel!(Sorry Peter)

Nothing wrong with the bodies - a very quick way of getting new designs out - all down to quality in the end. Could outsource it like Lotus.

Basic improvements - depends on your market. If looking for a larger market then the safety extras need to go on.

Nice dream - lets hope it comes true one day but knowing NS I bet he wont let go of it. No-one is going to pay a huge amount for whatever rights he ended up buying.

[Mr MoJo]

events said:

hey what about a diesel!(Sorry Peter)

[Mr M]

> lets hope it comes true one day but knowing NS I bet he wont let go of it

It's the school holidays soon - He'll have more time to work on it.

Edited by Mr M on Sunday 12th July 00:40

[900T-R]

I'd start with developing the Sagaris into a competitive GT racing package that can be succesfully offered along with support packages et al to (privateer) race teams - probably seeking liaisons with the existing efforts out there as to bundle resources and experience. Build a small number of roadgoing versions to cater for the 'road and track' brigade, incorparating lessons learnt from the track. Sure they'd be more expensive than TVRs of yore but as long as you don't seek to shift hundreds and the price/performance ratio is favourable versus GT3RSs and other offerings of that ilk I see no problem with that. There's still enough money around at that level as opposed to the middle market for weekend toys. Engine? Well I've heard an interesting thing or two lately but I'll keep schtum for now...

Only after the above has brought both an enviable position of the brand in the collective petrolhead awareness again through results, column inches, event marketing et cetera would I start the development of another model that would sit in traditional TVR heartland again - two-seat roadster/coupé, small dimensions/light weight with stonking big engine, gorgeous to behold, very reasonable price tag. Even then I'd embark on a growth path that would see TVR building a few hundred cars a year at some point, not thousands. I'd rather build too few cars for the market at some point and keep stability in the organisation than try to satisfy a sudden swell of demand in a market that will always be volatile.

[350Matt]

Agreed

when TVR had its 'boom' period in the early 90's they were assisted by the fact that they had very little competition only the MX5, now all the big boys produce decently fast sports cars

The 1st road model I'd make would be a low cost v6 coupe, doesn't have to be stupid fast sub 6 to 60 would do it and keep the car light, and looking gorgeous

[grumbledoak]

I'd try to remember how important the race series was to cashflow and development!

Then, with several allegedly improved Speed6 variants available, I'd try to restart an (any) Sp6 Sagaris challenge to allow them to develop. Then I'd then offer a road going version of that car (same chassis etc) and the same in a convertible T350 style, to the public.

Cannot see that happening at present, but I'm not as close to the grapevine as some.

[Mark (UB)]

grumbledoak said:

I'd try to remember how important the race series was to cashflow and development!

Then, with several allegedly improved Speed6 variants available, I'd try to restart an (any) Sp6 Sagaris challenge to allow them to develop. Then I'd then offer a road going version of that car (same chassis etc) and the same in a convertible T350 style, to the public.

Cannot see that happening at present, but I'm not as close to the grapevine as some.

Don't think the S6 route is best, just take a look at the current race teams including Sags they have all gone the V8 route. ( apart from the older cars, V6 etc)

That decision speaks volumes.

Edited by Mark (UB) on Sunday 12th July 10:03

[Erich Stahler]

What a pointless thread! much as I love the cars face facts, they have gone and the man who was responsible for their finest cars from about 1990 onwards is sadly dead.

[grumbledoak]

Mark UB said:

That decision speaks volumes.

EFA

[900T-R]

Erich Stahler said:

What a pointless thread! much as I love the cars face facts, they have gone and the man who was responsible for their finest cars from about 1990 onwards is sadly dead.

I don't see how that piece of defaitism is relevant to a start up under the TVR flag. Not in a world where we have effing Spykers and Invictas.

[Wacky Racer]

Erich Stahler said:

What a pointless thread! much as I love the cars face facts, they have gone and the man who was responsible for their finest cars from about 1990 onwards is sadly dead.

You could say the same about Triumph Motorcycles...they were defunct/finished/kaput until millionaire housebuilder John Bloor stepped in to revive them. Now, they are one of the most profitable bike firms in the world with a waiting list.



Peter Wheeler (RIP) is gone, as is that era.

You never know what might happen in the future, and new owners would need to know the kind of cars any new prospective customers would want to buy, and at what price.

[darkmark07]

Wacky Racer said:

You could say the same about Triumph Motorcycles...they were defunct/finished/kaput until millionaire housebuilder John Bloor stepped in to revive them. Now, they are one of the most profitable bike firms in the world with a waiting list.

Indeed, and a good example. However, Triumph have suceeded by having a wide range of bikes from sports bikes through tourers and so on and being amoungst the best in each class - a level of diversification that would be difficult for a niche manufacturer of sports cars!

[The Lukas]

I actually think if I won the lottery or somehow came into money (which will never happen let's face it), I would go and buy TVR off that Russian lad and do what it takes to start TVR up again (and probably offer jobs to everyone here...) to produce cars, starting off in low amounts.

I think a low cost entry level TVR is a great idea. Think of the S Series but make it modern day, a brand new design. Make them as reliable as possible, give good warranties and make them raw yet comfortable.

Engine choice...I would source outside engines for the time being and pay the money to make the Speed 6 and AJP as reliable as possible for the old lineup of Tuscan II and the Sagaris II.

Then comes the design of up to date favourites. Obviously a Tamora II and Cerbera II and T350 (with addition of a T370 AND maybe a special batch of the T400) and Typhoon. Then brand new cars would follow.

It's merely details that need sorting really...

[900T-R]

I think people shouldn't stare themselves blind at the glamour of building and marketing new cars - of course you need to do that, but that's not where the profit lies. Getting your share of what TVR owners (including motorsport teams) are happily spending on their cars during their ownership is where far bigger strides can be made. As long as there's massive overproduction in the car industry, you'd be hard pressed to shift cars with a decent profit (rear end apart, the Tamora was probably closest to the TVR success formula of the early/mid '90s and the least complex one technically - still each one they sold was a net loss apparently). Build no more cars than what the natural demand is like at a sustainable price and you'll find numbers will be a fair bit lower than what TVR put out even in the last years before their closure. However the likes of Donkervoort are getting by with building maybe three dozen road cars a year at similar prices to TVR. Why? Because they have a near-monopoly on aftersales service, upgrades, motorsport activities support, event marketing and merchandising. 'Factory approved' upgrades and conversions for instance have added value to the customer because having one will be pretty similar to buying the 'better' model from the off, come resale time they can point to an official brochure outlining the work and benefits, enhancing secondhand values.

OTOH (and I hope I don't offend anyone) TVR were particularly weak in aftersales support - I get the feeling what happened after a new model had been trailered to the Motorshow stand and people had wieded their chequebooks was of lesser importance to PW cum suis, choosing to concentrate on the next project instead...

[hoopyfrood]

The Lukas said:

I actually think if I won the lottery or somehow came into money (which will never happen let's face it), I would go and buy TVR off that Russian lad and do what it takes to start TVR up again (and probably offer jobs to everyone here...) to produce cars, starting off in low amounts.

Not sure a lottery win would cover the bill unless its a Euro win 'cause manufacturing ain't a cheap game anymore.....but

If we're in a dream state, how would you relaunch TVR. Personally I'd go with an updated Griffith. The trend in the car market is remakes of old classics with Jaguar on the E-Type and S-Type, Fiat with the 500, BM with the Mini's and VW relaunching the Bug then a trip down nostalgia lane seems to be a big sales plus.

You couldn't do it with with the old RV8 but an 8'pot is a must; so a frugal but tuned version (without all the gismos and electronic) BMWv8 (E39 M5, popular is small performance car makers inc. Ascari) making the kind of noise it very made before in an updated modern interpretation of the Griffith.

Biggest issue is RRP, keep it cheap in today's "austier" market could work and TVRs pricing policy has always been competative but too cheap and you risk lowering the brand. Personally, I'd keep the price down as it always has had the 'working man' sportscar appeal.

Still....nice to dream!

[900T-R]

hoopyfrood said:

Biggest issue is RRP, keep it cheap in today's "austier" market could work and TVRs pricing policy has always been competative but too cheap and you risk lowering the brand. Personally, I'd keep the price down as it always has had the 'working man' sportscar appeal.

Even if it meant losing money on every car you build? IMO protecting the residuals of the cars you build by having design/engineering continuity and offering excellent aftersales support is ultimately more important than RRP. Look at Morgan/Caterham/Wiesmann/Donkervoort et al: if you make people wait for new cars instead of flooding the market with them; if you make a very obviously valued customer out of every owner no matter if their car is 2 months or 20 years old, if they know you'll be around for a while longer and you can always choose to have new developments retrofitted to your car where applicable by the same folks that engineered it in the first place - then residuals will be high and the cost to change for a new(er) one will remain reasonable.

Edited by 900T-R on Sunday 12th July 14:27

[darkmark07]

900T-R said:

Even if it meant losing money on every car you build?

Well that's clearly not sustainable - if you can't build the car to make a reasonable profit then you've got a real problem usless you can sell additional services as, for example, Lotus do...