REAL cost of HGF
Discussion
I got my car back this week following its 3rd HGF in as many years! I thought it might be good to document my costs so far on the dreaded K-Series consumable!
1st HGF @ 31470 - April 2007
The failure mode of this one was the s
tty orginal gasket with elastomer seals peeling off for a past time so the head was skimmed and put back on with the Payen BW750 replacement.
COSTS
£1000 (covered by after market warranty)
£106.56 Timing belt, tensioner, plugs and petrol (not covered by after market warranty)
SUB-TOTAL = £1106.56
2nd HGF @ 36768 miles - February 2008
The failure mode of this one was a leak path between the cylinder liner and coolant way causing my coolant to boil up and engine to run rough. Pissed off with it lasting such a short time so this time did the job properly - checking everything possible! Brand new cylinder head and PRT fitted, also took the opportunity to fit a set of Piper 633 cams and vernier pulleys!
COSTS
£500 Cylinder Head (complete with valves) - Lotus wanted £700 without valves!
£150 PRT
£150 Vernier Pulleys
£350 Piper 633 Cams
£68.15 Old Cylinder Head Pressure Test
£23.97 Cylinder Liner Crack Test
£916.50 Labour
£346.56 Parts (Gaskets, seals, bolts, oxygen sensor, coolant, oil, etc)
£1000 of this was covered by my after market warranty again!
SUB-TOTAL = £2505.18
3rd HGF @ 47000 - June 2009
The failure mode of this one was again a leak path between the cylinder liner and coolant way causing my coolant to boil up and coolant spitting out above the gearbox to engine interface. Cylinder head checked for flatness and OK. Slightly loose elastomer seal in and around the failure point. OK fed up now after spending so much money the last time so agreed a fixed price with the dealer at £430 for labour only and I will supply all parts. I thought this was a bit steep so I checked with Lotus independent who were the same price and then with a local non-Lotus loving garage next to where I work who quoted £650! Although it started off as a fixed price I did get a phone call now and again to authorise the increase due to problems which included - bottom cambelt cover to be taken off and tensioner because I wanted to change the cambelt again, water pump leaking due to the O-ring going hard and to top it off, once it was back together the bloody thermostat housing o-rings were leaking and needed replacing increasing the labour bill to £679.65!
COSTS
£679.65 Labour
£32.00 Cambelt
£25.00 Tensioner
£40.00 Water Pump
£32.00 Expansion Tank
£50.00 Bolts
£30.00 Payen BW750 Gasket
£20.00 Ancillary Gaskets
£28.48 Anti-freeze
£13.14 Seals
£39.10 For a wrongly diagnosed hose leak prior to work commencing!
SUB TOTAL = £989.37 (NO WARRANTY THIS TIME I'M AFRAID!)
GRAND TOTAL = £4601.11 (Including some modifications)
I love my car, but the time has come to get shot of it as I have no confidence in my head gasket any longer. I know that the route cause to my problem is the cylinder liners being only 2 thou above the block face when they should be between 4 & 5, but I am not prepared to spend any more money on resolving this problem.
A few words of wisdom following 3 years of misery!
HGF does not always show itself if high revs are used. On the last two occasions revs had to be above 5000RPM for a prolonged period of time prior to the coolant boiling.
HGF does not always to have mayo on oil filler cap, on all 3 of my occasions the failure was between the waterway and cylinder bore!
MLS gasket is not the answer to all problems as it is not recommended for a low cylinder liner problem due to less bite around the fire rings!
Don't skim too much of the cylinder head as it will degrade it's hardness.
Some cylinder heads are soft and this is indicated by pitting around the firing ring. The head is only then useful as a paper weight or in my case to hold down all the bills.
Not all Rover engines are ste just my one seems to be the one built on a Friday afternoon before the end of the shift.
Does anyone know of any problems experienced with a Toyota engine prior to me diving into this engine?
My thanks go to Elise Parts who always deliver next day and are great. Dave Andrews at DVA Power who's advice is invaluable and always accurate and my local Dealer who is always very responsive to my problems and are living off my K-Series problem.
1st HGF @ 31470 - April 2007
The failure mode of this one was the s
tty orginal gasket with elastomer seals peeling off for a past time so the head was skimmed and put back on with the Payen BW750 replacement.COSTS
£1000 (covered by after market warranty)
£106.56 Timing belt, tensioner, plugs and petrol (not covered by after market warranty)
SUB-TOTAL = £1106.56
2nd HGF @ 36768 miles - February 2008
The failure mode of this one was a leak path between the cylinder liner and coolant way causing my coolant to boil up and engine to run rough. Pissed off with it lasting such a short time so this time did the job properly - checking everything possible! Brand new cylinder head and PRT fitted, also took the opportunity to fit a set of Piper 633 cams and vernier pulleys!
COSTS
£500 Cylinder Head (complete with valves) - Lotus wanted £700 without valves!
£150 PRT
£150 Vernier Pulleys
£350 Piper 633 Cams
£68.15 Old Cylinder Head Pressure Test
£23.97 Cylinder Liner Crack Test
£916.50 Labour
£346.56 Parts (Gaskets, seals, bolts, oxygen sensor, coolant, oil, etc)
£1000 of this was covered by my after market warranty again!
SUB-TOTAL = £2505.18
3rd HGF @ 47000 - June 2009
The failure mode of this one was again a leak path between the cylinder liner and coolant way causing my coolant to boil up and coolant spitting out above the gearbox to engine interface. Cylinder head checked for flatness and OK. Slightly loose elastomer seal in and around the failure point. OK fed up now after spending so much money the last time so agreed a fixed price with the dealer at £430 for labour only and I will supply all parts. I thought this was a bit steep so I checked with Lotus independent who were the same price and then with a local non-Lotus loving garage next to where I work who quoted £650! Although it started off as a fixed price I did get a phone call now and again to authorise the increase due to problems which included - bottom cambelt cover to be taken off and tensioner because I wanted to change the cambelt again, water pump leaking due to the O-ring going hard and to top it off, once it was back together the bloody thermostat housing o-rings were leaking and needed replacing increasing the labour bill to £679.65!
COSTS
£679.65 Labour
£32.00 Cambelt
£25.00 Tensioner
£40.00 Water Pump
£32.00 Expansion Tank
£50.00 Bolts
£30.00 Payen BW750 Gasket
£20.00 Ancillary Gaskets
£28.48 Anti-freeze
£13.14 Seals
£39.10 For a wrongly diagnosed hose leak prior to work commencing!
SUB TOTAL = £989.37 (NO WARRANTY THIS TIME I'M AFRAID!)
GRAND TOTAL = £4601.11 (Including some modifications)
I love my car, but the time has come to get shot of it as I have no confidence in my head gasket any longer. I know that the route cause to my problem is the cylinder liners being only 2 thou above the block face when they should be between 4 & 5, but I am not prepared to spend any more money on resolving this problem.
A few words of wisdom following 3 years of misery!
HGF does not always show itself if high revs are used. On the last two occasions revs had to be above 5000RPM for a prolonged period of time prior to the coolant boiling.
HGF does not always to have mayo on oil filler cap, on all 3 of my occasions the failure was between the waterway and cylinder bore!
MLS gasket is not the answer to all problems as it is not recommended for a low cylinder liner problem due to less bite around the fire rings!
Don't skim too much of the cylinder head as it will degrade it's hardness.
Some cylinder heads are soft and this is indicated by pitting around the firing ring. The head is only then useful as a paper weight or in my case to hold down all the bills.
Not all Rover engines are s
te just my one seems to be the one built on a Friday afternoon before the end of the shift.Does anyone know of any problems experienced with a Toyota engine prior to me diving into this engine?
My thanks go to Elise Parts who always deliver next day and are great. Dave Andrews at DVA Power who's advice is invaluable and always accurate and my local Dealer who is always very responsive to my problems and are living off my K-Series problem.
LRGS2 said:
Does anyone know of any problems experienced with a Toyota engine prior to me diving into this engine?
problems? There's no such thing as a totally problem free engine so it's really a question of which problems is the engine prone to and how often does it happen.The Totota 2ZZ engine has a complicated and light top end which can be over revved paricularly when making a wrong downshift. You could argue that this isnt really an engine problem cos any engine can be over revved to the point where it gives up, but it does seem a bit easier to do this on the Toyota engine. And some people have made the comment that the oil pump also suffers when over revved.
As for frequency, just compare the number of moans about it on this forum and bear in mind the large number of Toyota engined cars out there. Yes it does happen but no, its not common.
problem with the Yota engine is that its not easily tuneable
Theres a big part of me that thinks the job really wasn't done properly in the first place. Theres no way that a properly repaired head gasket should only last a few thousand miles.
My guess is that the liner heights were not checked.. and were simply wrong. This is critical.
I've probably replaced 20 'K' series head gaskets in MGF's and Elises over the last 3 or 4 years. Never had one fail yet (he says, running round looking for wood to touch!). Highest mileage to date is an MG TF, changed at 41k miles two years ago. Now at 116k miles, is driven everywhere flat out by a bit of a nutcase owner, tracked occasionally and used as an everyday car. To show how hard he drives it, its on its 4th set of timken wheel bearings and 4th set of disks!
And yes.... I do call him a nutcase to his face!
My guess is that the liner heights were not checked.. and were simply wrong. This is critical.
I've probably replaced 20 'K' series head gaskets in MGF's and Elises over the last 3 or 4 years. Never had one fail yet (he says, running round looking for wood to touch!). Highest mileage to date is an MG TF, changed at 41k miles two years ago. Now at 116k miles, is driven everywhere flat out by a bit of a nutcase owner, tracked occasionally and used as an everyday car. To show how hard he drives it, its on its 4th set of timken wheel bearings and 4th set of disks!
And yes.... I do call him a nutcase to his face!
Given where you live, it sounds to me like they didn't do a proper job on it. If you know the liners are out, why didn't they check and fix that the first time round? I know very little about HGF bar what I've read, but DVA has mentioned time and again that this is something that must be checked and corrected if the fix is to be effective.
I feel for you, but flogging on a car which you know still isn't right, to me is a bit naughty. No garantee you'll get any more reliability from a Toyota-engined car - they have plenty of documented problems of their own. Personally I'd get the K sorted out properly, by someone else, and then enjoy it.
I feel for you, but flogging on a car which you know still isn't right, to me is a bit naughty. No garantee you'll get any more reliability from a Toyota-engined car - they have plenty of documented problems of their own. Personally I'd get the K sorted out properly, by someone else, and then enjoy it.
Scuffers said:
lamb jiblets said:
there is one thing you could of done from the start young man LET IT WARM UP !!!
and please explain how that has cause the liners to drop? (as in the root cause of the issue)I've just repaired the head gasket on my 75 BHP 8V astra.
The cost will make you cry.
Full Top End gasket kit £15
Cam Belt £11 - I had one in the boot and had been intending to do it for 25K miles, but never bothered.
Bolts £9 (for 10)
Skim and pressure test £40
Oil, Anti freeze and oil filter £22
Blue sealant £5
My time 6 hours. (Is listed as less than 3 on autodata website)
The cost will make you cry.
Full Top End gasket kit £15
Cam Belt £11 - I had one in the boot and had been intending to do it for 25K miles, but never bothered.
Bolts £9 (for 10)
Skim and pressure test £40
Oil, Anti freeze and oil filter £22
Blue sealant £5
My time 6 hours. (Is listed as less than 3 on autodata website)
Scuffers said:
As said, does not sound like it was properly diagnosed in the first place... that said, that's not un-common and should not happen in the first place.
(Just an observation, that's half way towards a Honda conversion!)
But once fitted make sure you don't take the Honda around Spa (Just an observation, that's half way towards a Honda conversion!)
RonnieP said:
Scuffers said:
As said, does not sound like it was properly diagnosed in the first place... that said, that's not un-common and should not happen in the first place.
(Just an observation, that's half way towards a Honda conversion!)
But once fitted make sure you don't take the Honda around Spa (Just an observation, that's half way towards a Honda conversion!)
OK, why not (and remember I must have done at least 200+ laps round Spa in mine as has Chris Randal, and *many* others.)
Yes, some have failed, but there were very good reasons for them failing (related to their respective installs etc)
before you start making sweeping statements, you might just want to consider reality...
Edited by Scuffers on Monday 13th July 15:24
RonnieP said:
Light blue touchpaper and retire to a safe distance...
Maybe we should have a conversation about your profession then?I am sure it would be equally un-bias and less sensational (see the Sun/Mirros/NOTW/etc for details).
I think the point here is that you clearly know nothing about Honda conversations, as much as I know sod all about being a Social Worker, the difference is that you don't see me making dumb comments about stuff I don't know about.
Scuffers said:
RonnieP said:
Light blue touchpaper and retire to a safe distance...
Maybe we should have a conversation about your profession then?I am sure it would be equally un-bias and less sensational (see the Sun/Mirros/NOTW/etc for details).
I think the point here is that you clearly know nothing about Honda conversations, as much as I know sod all about being a Social Worker, the difference is that you don't see me making dumb comments about stuff I don't know about.
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