111R Questions
Discussion
Hi All,
I'm interested in getting back into a Lotus and have been thinking about a 111R. My previous experience was with an S1 160 with lots of mods (Throttle bodies, Emerald, Nitons 375lb front / 425lb springs rear I think, Ali Bells and braided houses etc). I enjoyed driving the car on track but also really liked the firmness on the road. So a few questions about the 111R in the context of what I've experienced perviously:
- Will it feel soft on factory suspension?
- Will the brakes be a bit limp?
- Will it feel as fast as my 175bhp ish S1 160?
- Does it have an oil cooler?
OR would I be better off with something like this and giving it to Dave Andrews to get it up to 170bhp?
http://pistonheads.com/sales/1044169.htm
Make any sense?
Cheers,
Rob
I'm interested in getting back into a Lotus and have been thinking about a 111R. My previous experience was with an S1 160 with lots of mods (Throttle bodies, Emerald, Nitons 375lb front / 425lb springs rear I think, Ali Bells and braided houses etc). I enjoyed driving the car on track but also really liked the firmness on the road. So a few questions about the 111R in the context of what I've experienced perviously:
- Will it feel soft on factory suspension?
- Will the brakes be a bit limp?
- Will it feel as fast as my 175bhp ish S1 160?
- Does it have an oil cooler?
OR would I be better off with something like this and giving it to Dave Andrews to get it up to 170bhp?
http://pistonheads.com/sales/1044169.htm
Make any sense?
Cheers,
Rob
Edited by rjben on Tuesday 23 June 19:21
I've owned both models, a standard R and currently drive a lightly fettled S160 with some nice choice upgrades.
- Will it feel soft on factory suspension? When pushing on hard in the R, a little bit, yes.
- Will the brakes be a bit limp? See above. I love my S160's non-servoed brakes.
- Will it feel as fast as my 175bhp ish S1 160? Off cam, slower. On cam, feels a tiny bit quicker. Although I reckon its not actually faster. You're just feeling the 'jerk' effect IMO.
- Does it have an oil cooler? don't believe the R has one as standard. Think its part of the Super Sport option pckage.
Very happy that I changed in favour of a S160.
- Will it feel soft on factory suspension? When pushing on hard in the R, a little bit, yes.
- Will the brakes be a bit limp? See above. I love my S160's non-servoed brakes.
- Will it feel as fast as my 175bhp ish S1 160? Off cam, slower. On cam, feels a tiny bit quicker. Although I reckon its not actually faster. You're just feeling the 'jerk' effect IMO.
- Does it have an oil cooler? don't believe the R has one as standard. Think its part of the Super Sport option pckage.
Very happy that I changed in favour of a S160.
It'll be a toy for weekends and trips away. I'm a bit torn really as I have 2 choices, spend 15k ish or 25k ish...........I've considered a 111r V S2 135 with Nitrons but at the back of my mind is an SC Exige BUT if I'm willing to consider that then I really should be getting an S2 Honda SC with all the bells and whistles - DAM THESE CHOICES!!
will it feel soft on factory suspension? why do you want it to feel hard? the idea of suspension is to keep the wheels in contact with the road whilst insulating you from bumps etc. Just strapping it down to make is hard achieves nothing but discomfort and a few loose teeth.
Brakes? Well I've yet to get any fade on either road or track from the standard and since I can lock up the wheels in the dry, I dont see any brake problem - at least with my driving.
performance difference would be negligible in practice, and something that would only really come into play on the track.A few tenths on the 0 to 60 time just doesnt appear on the roads except in imagination.
So it really boils down to what you like to do with the car. Modify it / enjoy buying extras? Then get a K engined car. Use every day - go Yota. Track day special - Exige / Honda.
Brakes? Well I've yet to get any fade on either road or track from the standard and since I can lock up the wheels in the dry, I dont see any brake problem - at least with my driving.
performance difference would be negligible in practice, and something that would only really come into play on the track.A few tenths on the 0 to 60 time just doesnt appear on the roads except in imagination.
So it really boils down to what you like to do with the car. Modify it / enjoy buying extras? Then get a K engined car. Use every day - go Yota. Track day special - Exige / Honda.
bordseye said:
will it feel soft on factory suspension? why do you want it to feel hard? the idea of suspension is to keep the wheels in contact with the road whilst insulating you from bumps etc. Just strapping it down to make is hard achieves nothing but discomfort and a few loose teeth.
Brakes? Well I've yet to get any fade on either road or track from the standard and since I can lock up the wheels in the dry, I dont see any brake problem - at least with my driving.
performance difference would be negligible in practice, and something that would only really come into play on the track.A few tenths on the 0 to 60 time just doesnt appear on the roads except in imagination.
So it really boils down to what you like to do with the car. Modify it / enjoy buying extras? Then get a K engined car. Use every day - go Yota. Track day special - Exige / Honda.
Yep, understand the concept of suspension, that's why I had the Nitrons wound off right off and high rated springs on the S1, that way all the bumps were soaked up, the car well damped but the chassis resited roll very nicely.Brakes? Well I've yet to get any fade on either road or track from the standard and since I can lock up the wheels in the dry, I dont see any brake problem - at least with my driving.
performance difference would be negligible in practice, and something that would only really come into play on the track.A few tenths on the 0 to 60 time just doesnt appear on the roads except in imagination.
So it really boils down to what you like to do with the car. Modify it / enjoy buying extras? Then get a K engined car. Use every day - go Yota. Track day special - Exige / Honda.
As for the brakes; the S1 sufferd from lack of initial bite and can get very spongy on track due to the standard hoses - not a nice feeling. I'm more concerned that the S2 will be over servoed (does it have a servo?) and will still have the s
te unbraided hoses as standard.Thanks for your help.
Rob
Sportsracers like mine have firmer dampers. They were an optionon the Elise R, not sure if they were on the earlier 111r. They are a good bit firmer but I still think standard factory set up is great on the road driving but it does feel a bit softer than ideal on the track. Personally I think the Toyota engine is a peach, so smooth compared to the k series it feels like it could rev past 9000. I also love the cam switch, it never fails to raise a smile. It won't be a popular comment on this forum but I think the 111r is far superior to the sport 160. It was a great car for it's time but it feels a bit ropey and crude in comparison. The gearchange in particular is terribly vague where the 111r's is superb. Many here will disagree of course.
[Probably not the most technical of write up's and I am not technical and probably do not know what I am talking about lol]
In terms of dampers I believe the Sportsracer's and the 111R with Sports pack come with Bilstien dampers that are firmer in setup to the touring pack Bilstien dampers.
I actually agree in part with you RE: engine etc, as I love the 111R, the fact it has enough fun bellow the cam, and then driving on the cam makes you work the very nice gearbox. In fact I would like to be doing this now, rather than being at my desk!
However my friend bought a Sport 160 and I have driven the Sport 160 a couple of times back to back with the 111R.
The Sport 160 feel's sharper & crisp RE: Turn in etc. Non Servo assisted brakes get a bit of getting use to i.e WHERE ARE THE BRAKES (first time you swap cars)Something special about the S1 and in scandel green everyone likes it, infact the Sport 160 got more attention than the 111R everytime when traveling around Europe. (Mind you cannot miss it, who needs a safety vest when you have a scandel green 160). The K Series with the Larini is like a GT Car, and really does sound good. I have driven a Sport 160 with a short shift modification and this felt better, but no way as good as the R's gearbox
The R feels with the touring pack setup (With Plans Geo setup - neutral setup)has a bit more roll in the corners, but rides the road like a dream, my 1 Series feels more worse and that is a standard road car. On a twisty roads you still have the Sport 160 on your bumper (as I feel it does have the handling advantage over the 111R (The Sport 160 concerned has Nitron's)
IMO - If you like Sunday blasts and track days the Sport 160 is probably the better choice. On the European road trips we do with the cars, the Sport 160 is good, however the 111R is more comfortable and a bit more civilised. The advantage of the 111R is on the motorway you can cruise quite happily at a bit more speed than the Sport 160 and still have hearing (Mind you I am comparing two cars fitted with Larini systems. Likewise between good road roads I enjoy the more civilised and still fun 111R. They are very chalk and cheese, you need to try both as I think 70% I would rather be in the 111R, but some of that 30% could be very good fun !
If I had my way I would have both !
The Sports 160 feels more extreme than the 111R but would not say ropey, it will be a classic car no doubt.
Going back to the first Question (IMO) to get the 111R feeling more like the Sport 160 and if you were tracking it I would do the following:
In terms of dampers I believe the Sportsracer's and the 111R with Sports pack come with Bilstien dampers that are firmer in setup to the touring pack Bilstien dampers.
I actually agree in part with you RE: engine etc, as I love the 111R, the fact it has enough fun bellow the cam, and then driving on the cam makes you work the very nice gearbox. In fact I would like to be doing this now, rather than being at my desk!
However my friend bought a Sport 160 and I have driven the Sport 160 a couple of times back to back with the 111R.
The Sport 160 feel's sharper & crisp RE: Turn in etc. Non Servo assisted brakes get a bit of getting use to i.e WHERE ARE THE BRAKES (first time you swap cars)Something special about the S1 and in scandel green everyone likes it, infact the Sport 160 got more attention than the 111R everytime when traveling around Europe. (Mind you cannot miss it, who needs a safety vest when you have a scandel green 160). The K Series with the Larini is like a GT Car, and really does sound good. I have driven a Sport 160 with a short shift modification and this felt better, but no way as good as the R's gearbox
The R feels with the touring pack setup (With Plans Geo setup - neutral setup)has a bit more roll in the corners, but rides the road like a dream, my 1 Series feels more worse and that is a standard road car. On a twisty roads you still have the Sport 160 on your bumper (as I feel it does have the handling advantage over the 111R (The Sport 160 concerned has Nitron's)
IMO - If you like Sunday blasts and track days the Sport 160 is probably the better choice. On the European road trips we do with the cars, the Sport 160 is good, however the 111R is more comfortable and a bit more civilised. The advantage of the 111R is on the motorway you can cruise quite happily at a bit more speed than the Sport 160 and still have hearing (Mind you I am comparing two cars fitted with Larini systems. Likewise between good road roads I enjoy the more civilised and still fun 111R. They are very chalk and cheese, you need to try both as I think 70% I would rather be in the 111R, but some of that 30% could be very good fun !
If I had my way I would have both !
The Sports 160 feels more extreme than the 111R but would not say ropey, it will be a classic car no doubt.
Going back to the first Question (IMO) to get the 111R feeling more like the Sport 160 and if you were tracking it I would do the following:
- Suspension - Probably need to have Nitron's or Ohlin's I have heard good things about both. Both with Good geo setup by specialist. (Only if tracking it)
- Brakes - Pagid pads all round does the trick, and if you have 06 and beyond the R the pedal box is redesigned to heal and toe better, 2004/05 are worse for this however do not have DBW trottle.
- Wheels & Tyres, I hear running either the lightweight lotus wheels or Exige wheels means you can run 195 width tyres on the front, therefore limiting understeer depending on Geo setup I guess. You can then run the Semi slicks on these rims. I actually do not mind the AD07's on normal 111R rims, but if you were tracking probably a good upgrade. My car with the a Geo setup by Plans is pretty netural, and I do not get any understeer.
- Toe Link - Updgraded for track use.
- Oil cooler only comes with Supersport package (I think)
- Will it feels as fast - probably with Larini or Tubular etc.
Edited by Stu_00 on Thursday 25th June 08:48
Edited by Stu_00 on Thursday 25th June 08:49
Edited by Stu_00 on Thursday 25th June 08:55
Edited by Stu_00 on Thursday 25th June 08:56
Edited by Stu_00 on Thursday 25th June 08:57
Edited by Stu_00 on Thursday 25th June 11:31
rjben said:
As for the brakes; the S1 sufferd from lack of initial bite and can get very spongy on track due to the standard hoses - not a nice feeling. I'm more concerned that the S2 will be over servoed (does it have a servo?) and will still have the ste unbraided hoses as standard.
Thanks for your help.
Rob
I've only ever done one track day and as a consequence that track day tended to be a bit of point and squirt - I m not anything like as smooth as I should be, but I wasnt tail end Charlie either. Despite that, the brakes worked well with no fade whatsoever.I may well change the pads when the time comes to renew but that will be more about the problem of pads welding to discs when left wet in the garage than any need to cure braking problems.te unbraided hoses as standard.Thanks for your help.
Rob
I can understand the comments about turn in - the 111r with the narrower front rims does understeer more than the earlier Elise but is less inclined to snap oversteer.
The 6 speed yota gearbox is superb in feel - up to the standard of the best mass manufacturers. And the engine is smooth though because of that it feels as if it could do with an extra 100 bhp.
For me the decider was reliability. I cant be bothered to be dealing with things like HGF. As the ex owner of a long term Triumph Stag, I've had enough of that sort of thing - I expect my cars to run without problems and the 111R does that
Edited by bordseye on Thursday 25th June 10:59
After my the Geo setup at plans motorsport, the understeer has been dialed out, it now feels pretty neutral, without snap oversteer.
The Geo was well worth it !
The Geo was well worth it !
bordseye said:
I can understand the comments about turn in - the 111r with the narrower front rims does understeer more than the earlier Elise but is less inclined to snap oversteer.
Edited by bordseye on Thursday 25th June 10:59
Indeed I have, Spa in April (what a day!) and couple times at the Grand Prix track at the Ring, including tuesday this week 
. With a Nice Exige, 2 X SC's and a Honda S2. Ahh and a Red with Strip Challenge Stradale --sorry i must not dribble in public
Got completely thrashed by a very nice Elise SC in chrome orange with German plates.
I am probably pretty slow on the circuit than most, and really starting to concentrate on lines and technique after having a lot of instruction this year.
But even so the set up that plans did seems to be pretty dam good plus the pagid pads. Still i would say no understeer including the sharp turn after the straight on the nurbergring GP Circuit and than is one tight corner.
. With a Nice Exige, 2 X SC's and a Honda S2. Ahh and a Red with Strip Challenge Stradale --sorry i must not dribble in public Got completely thrashed by a very nice Elise SC in chrome orange with German plates.
I am probably pretty slow on the circuit than most, and really starting to concentrate on lines and technique after having a lot of instruction this year.
But even so the set up that plans did seems to be pretty dam good plus the pagid pads. Still i would say no understeer including the sharp turn after the straight on the nurbergring GP Circuit and than is one tight corner.
bordseye said:
Have you had it on a circuit yet Stu? I didnt notice the understeer until I did so - just dont travel that fast on public roads
Edited by Stu_00 on Thursday 25th June 14:23
Edited by Stu_00 on Thursday 25th June 14:25
I have a 111r with the 2 way ohlins and braided hoses. It is sublime on track and on the road, obviously you do actually need to change the settings of the dampers but this doesn't even require the wheels off. Brakes are top, I have not compared it to the S1 but I have zero to complain about.
Have you had a geo setup with a known specialist & Which suspension do you have?
I only have the touring pack on my car, so only normal dampers but even so plans did a good job setting the car up and maybe its my driving i.e. Granny slow on the track sometimes, but I have not experienced push understeer since the setup. Granted with touring suspension does pitch, but still get front end bite.
Might also be down to the tyres, & tyre pressure combined with my Geo. I.e I am running AD07's and the seloc pressure around 23 front and 25 rear.
I only have the touring pack on my car, so only normal dampers but even so plans did a good job setting the car up and maybe its my driving i.e. Granny slow on the track sometimes, but I have not experienced push understeer since the setup. Granted with touring suspension does pitch, but still get front end bite.
Might also be down to the tyres, & tyre pressure combined with my Geo. I.e I am running AD07's and the seloc pressure around 23 front and 25 rear.
bordseye said:
Interesting - I've always tended to go slow into corners and accelerate through them, so I found that I was getting push understeer big time on one corner at Castle combe.
Edited by Stu_00 on Friday 26th June 08:33
Absolutely boggo standard with no geo at all - running AD07s. Its probably my driving skill - I did the laps of Hethel at the 60th with one of their demo drivers in a standard S and he managed to get the car sideways quite easily. So as I say, maybe its not the geo but the driver that the issue.
You will probably be running standard factory Geometry settings [http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Geo_Setups]
A good specialist like Plans Motorsport / Back on track (backontrackmotorsport.co.uk/) will be able to talk you through a setup that suits you & use of car i.e Road/Track / expert/beginner etc.
Speaking from other Elise owners depedning on use you should probably get this done every couple of years as it will slowly degrade from the setup through bumps, pot holes etc...
I only have experience of places down south, so if you located elsewhere search for Geo on this forum, as it always comes up.
Depending on the set up you decide upon, you will find a big difference in the handling of the car, and think its worth doing before you decide on upgrading various stuff, unless you thinking of changing the Suspension in which case Nitron's / Ohlins means you can have the Geo done with corner weighting - more customised but only with adjustable suspension.
Hope that helps....
A good specialist like Plans Motorsport / Back on track (backontrackmotorsport.co.uk/) will be able to talk you through a setup that suits you & use of car i.e Road/Track / expert/beginner etc.
Speaking from other Elise owners depedning on use you should probably get this done every couple of years as it will slowly degrade from the setup through bumps, pot holes etc...
I only have experience of places down south, so if you located elsewhere search for Geo on this forum, as it always comes up.
Depending on the set up you decide upon, you will find a big difference in the handling of the car, and think its worth doing before you decide on upgrading various stuff, unless you thinking of changing the Suspension in which case Nitron's / Ohlins means you can have the Geo done with corner weighting - more customised but only with adjustable suspension.
Hope that helps....
bordseye said:
Absolutely boggo standard with no geo at all - running AD07s. Its probably my driving skill - I did the laps of Hethel at the 60th with one of their demo drivers in a standard S and he managed to get the car sideways quite easily. So as I say, maybe its not the geo but the driver that the issue.
Edited by Stu_00 on Friday 26th June 11:39
Rob,
Welcome back mate - hope you're well. You'll find a stock 111R slow vs. the old car. I know, because when I got rid of my 160 I tried all the Lotus 'yota variants available at the time (111S, 111R, Exige NA, Exige Cup240). The only one that felt quicker was the latter.
Better option would be to get that S2 and get the DVA treatment if you want to keep the K-series. On the Honda SC front, be warned, it will be a lot quicker, but you will pay for it. Consumables goes up, the cost of ownership if you track it will be more expensive than the 160 by a factor of at least x2 I reckon (the NA car was almost that), and reliability may be an issue (enough silly niggly little things went wrong with mine, but I think that was as much to do with it's age, that it was an early kit and that things had started to need replacing).
A newer one would probably be better, but some people are still having driveshaft issues with them.
For my money I'd go with a nicely tuned K-series - that 135 looks a good place to start!
Welcome back mate - hope you're well. You'll find a stock 111R slow vs. the old car. I know, because when I got rid of my 160 I tried all the Lotus 'yota variants available at the time (111S, 111R, Exige NA, Exige Cup240). The only one that felt quicker was the latter.
Better option would be to get that S2 and get the DVA treatment if you want to keep the K-series. On the Honda SC front, be warned, it will be a lot quicker, but you will pay for it. Consumables goes up, the cost of ownership if you track it will be more expensive than the 160 by a factor of at least x2 I reckon (the NA car was almost that), and reliability may be an issue (enough silly niggly little things went wrong with mine, but I think that was as much to do with it's age, that it was an early kit and that things had started to need replacing).
A newer one would probably be better, but some people are still having driveshaft issues with them.
For my money I'd go with a nicely tuned K-series - that 135 looks a good place to start!
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