NHS - Time for a change?
Poll: NHS - Time for a change?
Total Members Polled: 60
Discussion
Off the back of some comments in Nolar Dog's thread I wondered what experiences anyone else had with the NHS? I'm in the questionable position of both working for the NHS and being subjected to their utter uselessness as a patient.
On the positive side, my job is secure for as long as I want it, and my pension is all but guaranteed when I retire. I applaud the idea of free healthcare for everyone, but I think the system is hopelessly overloaded now, to the point where it's failing pretty much everyone.
From my perspective, I've seen the lengths that indivdual parts of the NHS will go to in order to meet the arbitrary targets set by a goverment who clearly have no idea about reality. Ambulances must reach 75% of patients within 8 minutes, and A&E departments must transfer or discharge their patients within 4 hours. Funnily enough, the government don't care whether these patients live or die, or how well they are treated, as long as these (and other) targets are met.
As a result, figures get fiddled. Not fraudulently, but it happens. Every A&E department in the country probably has some kind of 'step-down' area, where they can claim to have discharged patients to, but in reality they're still waiting for a bed on a ward. Ambulance services use voluntary first responders and defibrillators in public places to 'stop the clock' and meet their magic 8 minute target.
And on a personal level, I've been virtually crippled with back problems. It's taken over 6 months just to get a scan and a consultation with a specialist. If I were to wait for the surgery I need on the NHS, the waiting list (with a government target of 4 months) is at least 6 months, but that doesn't take into account cancellations due to emergencies, higher priority patients, administrative errors....
Knowing what I know now, I would willingly turn back the clock and take out private health insurance, whatever the cost. IMO the NHS needs an enormous injection of money to vastly improve services and facilities, but I doubt that will ever happen, and it will continue to spiral downwards, aided in no small way by the ever-increasing number of UK residents who don't contribute by paying tax and NI
So, has the NHS had its day? Should we go down the private healthcare route and just say b
ks to all the people who can't or won't pay for insurance?
On the positive side, my job is secure for as long as I want it, and my pension is all but guaranteed when I retire. I applaud the idea of free healthcare for everyone, but I think the system is hopelessly overloaded now, to the point where it's failing pretty much everyone.
From my perspective, I've seen the lengths that indivdual parts of the NHS will go to in order to meet the arbitrary targets set by a goverment who clearly have no idea about reality. Ambulances must reach 75% of patients within 8 minutes, and A&E departments must transfer or discharge their patients within 4 hours. Funnily enough, the government don't care whether these patients live or die, or how well they are treated, as long as these (and other) targets are met.
As a result, figures get fiddled. Not fraudulently, but it happens. Every A&E department in the country probably has some kind of 'step-down' area, where they can claim to have discharged patients to, but in reality they're still waiting for a bed on a ward. Ambulance services use voluntary first responders and defibrillators in public places to 'stop the clock' and meet their magic 8 minute target.
And on a personal level, I've been virtually crippled with back problems. It's taken over 6 months just to get a scan and a consultation with a specialist. If I were to wait for the surgery I need on the NHS, the waiting list (with a government target of 4 months) is at least 6 months, but that doesn't take into account cancellations due to emergencies, higher priority patients, administrative errors....
Knowing what I know now, I would willingly turn back the clock and take out private health insurance, whatever the cost. IMO the NHS needs an enormous injection of money to vastly improve services and facilities, but I doubt that will ever happen, and it will continue to spiral downwards, aided in no small way by the ever-increasing number of UK residents who don't contribute by paying tax and NI
So, has the NHS had its day? Should we go down the private healthcare route and just say b
ks to all the people who can't or won't pay for insurance?parapaul said:
So, has the NHS had its day? Should we go down the private healthcare route and just say bks to all the people who can't or won't pay for insurance?
The NHS simply doesn't work as it should at the moment. Not the fault of the staff, but as an institution it has become far too bloated and inflexible.ks to all the people who can't or won't pay for insurance?My solution?
Abolish NHS. Put money saved into national hospital coffer. Use money in national coffer to pay for operations at private facilities, using private companies. Most successful private companies get most work. Specialisation occurs. Quality of care review every six months by independent board. Standards start slipping, then award contract to new private company. Vast amount of work available. More private companies spring up. Quality of care increases and price falls with competition. Only jobs lost are by definition those which were never needed in the first place. I reckon it would work. In theory...
Abolish, no.
Restructure, cut-back staff and expenditure, massively revamp, yes. The question is who could be charged with executing such a bohemeth task. Would you trust the government to do it after seeing the results of their meddling in the finance sector, for example? I certainly wouldn't. Let's face it, in recent years they've successfully balls'd up comparitively small-fry projects relating to the NHS, so something of this magnitude is way beyond their ability. P*ss ups and breweries...
The NHS is great in priciple, fair enough it costs the tax payer a pretty penny, but compared to many a healthcare system overseas it's a godsend. It's just in need of massive reforms and cuts in staff and expenditure.
Still, I won't be cancelling my private healthcare policies quite yet!
Restructure, cut-back staff and expenditure, massively revamp, yes. The question is who could be charged with executing such a bohemeth task. Would you trust the government to do it after seeing the results of their meddling in the finance sector, for example? I certainly wouldn't. Let's face it, in recent years they've successfully balls'd up comparitively small-fry projects relating to the NHS, so something of this magnitude is way beyond their ability. P*ss ups and breweries...
The NHS is great in priciple, fair enough it costs the tax payer a pretty penny, but compared to many a healthcare system overseas it's a godsend. It's just in need of massive reforms and cuts in staff and expenditure.
Still, I won't be cancelling my private healthcare policies quite yet!
Edited by Stu R on Monday 1st June 02:38
having spent 20 years working within the nhs and 2 years working within the canadian health care system.
I can report that the NHS scores hugely on patient focus, accessibility and cost to the punter.
in the uk you can register with a GP and it would be pretty unusual if you couldnt. Also you can usually see your gp within 24 hours
you pay a max of just over 7 quid for a prescription
in many areas you will be seen within 18 weeks by a consultant
Your treatment will probably be up to date and evidence based
its not a bad deal is it? it I needed medical attention I know where I would rather be
I can report that the NHS scores hugely on patient focus, accessibility and cost to the punter.
in the uk you can register with a GP and it would be pretty unusual if you couldnt. Also you can usually see your gp within 24 hours
you pay a max of just over 7 quid for a prescription
in many areas you will be seen within 18 weeks by a consultant
Your treatment will probably be up to date and evidence based
its not a bad deal is it? it I needed medical attention I know where I would rather be
Not enough choices so I haven't voted.
Stick in an overhaul the NHS system and I might cast a vote.
I have been very fortunate in my dealing with NHS as have my family in the main, but it does appear that standards have slipped and that it could be improved.
My wife works in healthcare, it is she who tells me standards have slipped.
Stick in an overhaul the NHS system and I might cast a vote.
I have been very fortunate in my dealing with NHS as have my family in the main, but it does appear that standards have slipped and that it could be improved.
My wife works in healthcare, it is she who tells me standards have slipped.
sawman said:
in the uk you can register with a GP and it would be pretty unusual if you couldnt. Also you can usually see your gp within 24 hours
I don't know of a single GP surgery in the whole county where anyone can make an appointment in 24 hours. Standard seems to be 3-4 days, but easily a week if for some reason you can't make 2:45 on Tuesday afternoon.sawman said:
you pay a max of just over 7 quid for a prescription
Yes, but put it in context - many people take more than one medicine, myself included. That means 4 x £7 each month. Not such a good deal when on a private prescription the cost would quite likely be less.sawman said:
in many areas you will be seen within 18 weeks by a consultant
Again, that's a target. Not many places meet those waiting list targets.sawman said:
Your treatment will probably be up to date and evidence based
Fair enough, it probably will be.sawman said:
its not a bad deal is it? it I needed medical attention I know where I would rather be
Just out of interest, because I have no idea what it's like in other countries, how does this all compare? Costs, waiting times, facilities...parapaul said:
I don't know of a single GP surgery in the whole county where anyone can make an appointment in 24 hours. Standard seems to be 3-4 days, but easily a week if for some reason you can't make 2:45 on Tuesday afternoon.
If necessary I can usually call in the morning and get an appointment that dayparapaul said:
Yes, but put it in context - many people take more than one medicine, myself included. That means 4 x £7 each month. Not such a good deal when on a private prescription the cost would quite likely be less.
If you require multiple prescriptions is there not a fixed monthly cost or something similar that reduces the cost ? I have been advised by pharmacists when a prescription item was available over the counter at less cost, could be worth asking when you submit your prescriptions
parapaul said:
Again, that's a target. Not many places meet those waiting list targets.
I don't know about most places but if it is the case that most places don't meet the 18 week target that I am fortunate where I liveparapaul said:
Just out of interest, because I have no idea what it's like in other countries, how does this all compare? Costs, waiting times, facilities...
Last time I had to visit a doctor overseas - Azerbaijan - I was just over 120pounds for the consultation and three prescriptions.Edited by Corpulent Tosser on Monday 1st June 04:21
parapaul said:
So, has the NHS had its day? Should we go down the private healthcare route and just say bks to all the people who can't or won't pay for insurance?
I voted to scrap it but meaning as it is, we still need social health system to ensure we do not end up like America where a good friend of mine who could not afford health care for herself or her child was put in the amazing situation of "we'll provide health care for your child but you must sign away your parental rites" which meant she would lose her child and the state would then turn the machines off.ks to all the people who can't or won't pay for insurance?He was born terminally ill, she wasn't poor but was not in a position to afford the private health cover.
Myself I get healthcare at work as a benefit I cannot deselect. I get taxed on a benefit I am precluded from using due to pre-existing conditions. I do not believe private health care is a good idea other for those that need non-urgent attention or those that are fortunate to be in a position of good health as to not be either exclued from cover or have hugely inflated premiums charged.
We should all be entitled, at the very least, to an equal health care system, hoever, the NHS needs a serious overhaul. It is vastly over funded yet leaks money faster than the titanic took to sink.
parapaul said:
sawman said:
in the uk you can register with a GP and it would be pretty unusual if you couldnt. Also you can usually see your gp within 24 hours
I don't know of a single GP surgery in the whole county where anyone can make an appointment in 24 hours. Standard seems to be 3-4 days, but easily a week if for some reason you can't make 2:45 on Tuesday afternoon.sawman said:
you pay a max of just over 7 quid for a prescription
Yes, but put it in context - many people take more than one medicine, myself included. That means 4 x £7 each month. Not such a good deal when on a private prescription the cost would quite likely be less.sawman said:
in many areas you will be seen within 18 weeks by a consultant
Again, that's a target. Not many places meet those waiting list targets.sawman said:
Your treatment will probably be up to date and evidence based
Fair enough, it probably will be.sawman said:
its not a bad deal is it? it I needed medical attention I know where I would rather be
Just out of interest, because I have no idea what it's like in other countries, how does this all compare? Costs, waiting times, facilities...In canada you pay the price of the drug, eg i coughed up $40 for a prescription nose spray today, that you can buy OTC in the uk for less than half that, and $115 for an asthma inhaler! oh and yanks come to canada to buy their meds so must be worse down there!
In my area you will wait 3-4 months for an mri, upto 12 months for elective orthopaedic surgery. seeing a gp is free, as is hospital treatment, but physio is pretty much all private, and I paid $300 bucks to be picked up off the floor and taken to hospital in ambulance when my back went bang
the taxation burden here is about the same as the uk (possibly a little higher) and yes I could spend $400 a month on health insurance which would take care of 80% of the items mentioned above
I get really fed up with folks saying how crap the nhs is, cos it just isnt. yes it could be better but I dont think anyone can deny that things can always improve and as for reorganising it - in my 20 odd year connection with it it has been constantly changing, mostly for the better, it is now much more user focussed, patients used be there at the convenience of the organisation, now its pretty much the other way around
gets off soap box!
I havent voted as I believe its not that simple. Over the last year I have spent time in private and NHS hospitals (Big RTA) the main difference as far as I can see is that in the NHS there seems to be less people working, not less staff but less people working.
The patients are often to blame too. A receptionist told me that they can get up to 30% no shows for a consultant. Therefore they overbook and we all wait too long. The people moaning are probably the ones who didnt show up last week.
Doesnt happen when you are paying £120 for 15 minutes consultation.
The patients are often to blame too. A receptionist told me that they can get up to 30% no shows for a consultant. Therefore they overbook and we all wait too long. The people moaning are probably the ones who didnt show up last week.
Doesnt happen when you are paying £120 for 15 minutes consultation.
Keep it.
As an emergency service that is "free" at the point of use it is an excellent service. As a machine it does seem to creek and groan and it gives the perception of being over managed.
I would rather see the NHS stand, funded by public money than have an entirely privately funded and cherry picked insurance derived service.
As an emergency service that is "free" at the point of use it is an excellent service. As a machine it does seem to creek and groan and it gives the perception of being over managed.
I would rather see the NHS stand, funded by public money than have an entirely privately funded and cherry picked insurance derived service.
Personally I think the NHS is one of the very few remaining things to be proud of in this country.
Having had both private and NHS treatment in the past, I'd say the quality of the treatment provided by the NHS was at least comparable, probably better, than the private sector. That's not to say that it couldn't be be greatly improved, of course - nothing is perfect.
ETA: Oh and I can get an emergency appointment to see my GP within 24 hours, too. Normal appointments are typically 2-3 days.
Having had both private and NHS treatment in the past, I'd say the quality of the treatment provided by the NHS was at least comparable, probably better, than the private sector. That's not to say that it couldn't be be greatly improved, of course - nothing is perfect.
ETA: Oh and I can get an emergency appointment to see my GP within 24 hours, too. Normal appointments are typically 2-3 days.
Edited by kambites on Monday 1st June 08:50
From my experience of working within surgeries in the NHS, I have noticed that it isn't the clinical side of the organisation that is the problem. It is the 'bloated' and oversubscribed and overpaid management side that is the main problem.
Having worked with both management and clinical staff, I can tell you that the problem definitely lies within the former.
You want a meeting? It won't be held in one of the trust's numerous meeting rooms, oh no, it'll be in the conference room of an expensive hotel. You want food at a meeting? We won't use the office canteen, we'll get an expensive outside caterer in and provide lunch that way.
We know of an ex HR director who not only made her own redundancy package (which asssisted the buying of a second home), but then went back to work at the same place less than 6 months later.
I have never seen so many managers covering so little work. In our dept where I work now we have an IT manager. At the NHS we had numerous IT managers, directors etc etc. Ridiculous.
We also had meetings to have meetings. Some days the managers were just constantly in meetings. Some of these were all over the country too, so you have travel and accommodation expenses. Don't even get me started about the numerous conferences that simply must be attended!
Also, has anybody noticed that certain career NHS managers seem very much like council workers??
Having worked with both management and clinical staff, I can tell you that the problem definitely lies within the former.
You want a meeting? It won't be held in one of the trust's numerous meeting rooms, oh no, it'll be in the conference room of an expensive hotel. You want food at a meeting? We won't use the office canteen, we'll get an expensive outside caterer in and provide lunch that way.
We know of an ex HR director who not only made her own redundancy package (which asssisted the buying of a second home), but then went back to work at the same place less than 6 months later.
I have never seen so many managers covering so little work. In our dept where I work now we have an IT manager. At the NHS we had numerous IT managers, directors etc etc. Ridiculous.
We also had meetings to have meetings. Some days the managers were just constantly in meetings. Some of these were all over the country too, so you have travel and accommodation expenses. Don't even get me started about the numerous conferences that simply must be attended!
Also, has anybody noticed that certain career NHS managers seem very much like council workers??
Poll amended. Serves me right for starting threads that late at night!
NHS and GPs are a joke where I am...
I cant register with any GP in the area as they are all full and the nearest one is several miles away that maybe able to put me on the books.... unless of course Im a dole grabbing scum, an immigrant or foreign and then I can be signed up immediately.
Same goes for NHS... I can sign up and wait for months to be seen or canceled unless Im the same annoying 'let me jump the queue' scum, who I might add... DONT fkING PAY FOR IT... I DO.
I have now got private cover and and opt for the I will pay and not use it and thats how im going to help the system.
It is that bad that my mother has very early stage 1 breast cancer and the NHS said its not advanced/important enough to go on the list asap and get sorted and she would have to wait months to be seen, let alone operated on... and she works for the NHS and has done for 30+ years as a radiographer. So we are lucky that my father works for a american company that simply said, invoice us and where ever you need to go in the world and who you need to see is fine with us.... she is now a few days away from having it operated on.
NHS need to get rid of the pen pushers... the people like the counciler that is paid 36-45k to assist people in ways to stop smoking... I mean WTF...
right im off for a coffee now.... had enough of a rant
I cant register with any GP in the area as they are all full and the nearest one is several miles away that maybe able to put me on the books.... unless of course Im a dole grabbing scum, an immigrant or foreign and then I can be signed up immediately.
Same goes for NHS... I can sign up and wait for months to be seen or canceled unless Im the same annoying 'let me jump the queue' scum, who I might add... DONT f
kING PAY FOR IT... I DO.I have now got private cover and and opt for the I will pay and not use it and thats how im going to help the system.
It is that bad that my mother has very early stage 1 breast cancer and the NHS said its not advanced/important enough to go on the list asap and get sorted and she would have to wait months to be seen, let alone operated on... and she works for the NHS and has done for 30+ years as a radiographer. So we are lucky that my father works for a american company that simply said, invoice us and where ever you need to go in the world and who you need to see is fine with us.... she is now a few days away from having it operated on.
NHS need to get rid of the pen pushers... the people like the counciler that is paid 36-45k to assist people in ways to stop smoking... I mean WTF...
right im off for a coffee now.... had enough of a rant
I think we need to keep the NHS but it does need some major changes.
First of all stop the Govt, sticking their noses in, because everything they interfere with goes T1Ts up.
If you think going completely private is the answer then watch Micheal Moore's "Sicko"
I know it's biased but according to Sicko,in the USA if you're long term sick you can't get health care for love nor money.
First of all stop the Govt, sticking their noses in, because everything they interfere with goes T1Ts up.
If you think going completely private is the answer then watch Micheal Moore's "Sicko"
I know it's biased but according to Sicko,in the USA if you're long term sick you can't get health care for love nor money.
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