Can you believe this ? Opinions please !
Discussion
I had to post this to hear what people think of this sort of service from a main dealer / car manufacturer.
My father owns a 1996 Supercharged Jaguar XJR. Recently the car would refuse to change gear when accelerating hard and would sound like the car had hit a rev limiter (but in 2nd & 3rd gear).
He took it to a main Jaguar dealer who identified the fault as being lamda sensors. This was slightly odd as they had been replaced at a cost of £800 (not covered by the warantee) only 4 weeks previously.
After looking into the problem further, they found that the catalytic converters had disintegrated and had basically fried the (new) lamda sensors. The end result is the need for new cats (x2) and new lamda sensors the bill is currently £2,500 !
If this wasn't bad enough, the Jaguar dealer then informed my father that the company that makes Jaguar approved catalytic converters had gone out of business, and they would not be able to supply new approved cats for 6 months. By the way this information had come directly from Jaguar not from the dealer.
Fortunately the dealer has managed to locate some alternative cats and is looking to fit these instead.
As you can imagine my father is slightly shell shocked and I thought you guys might have some interesting / useful advice and opinions, hence...
My questions are:
1. Should the new cats be covered by a Jag guarantee as they are being supplied by a Jag main dealer?
2. Should the dealer have looked into the reason the lamda sensors had gone after just 60,000 miles the first time they were replaced and therefore offer to cover the cost of the second set?
3. Does the catalytic converter company going bust and therefore not being able to supply replacements for 6 months sound feasible?
4. Has anyone got any advice regarding seeking some sort of goodwill claim against these costs?
Sorry for the long post - just thought all the details were important.
All opinions gratefully received.
Cheers
Paul
My father owns a 1996 Supercharged Jaguar XJR. Recently the car would refuse to change gear when accelerating hard and would sound like the car had hit a rev limiter (but in 2nd & 3rd gear).
He took it to a main Jaguar dealer who identified the fault as being lamda sensors. This was slightly odd as they had been replaced at a cost of £800 (not covered by the warantee) only 4 weeks previously.
After looking into the problem further, they found that the catalytic converters had disintegrated and had basically fried the (new) lamda sensors. The end result is the need for new cats (x2) and new lamda sensors the bill is currently £2,500 !
If this wasn't bad enough, the Jaguar dealer then informed my father that the company that makes Jaguar approved catalytic converters had gone out of business, and they would not be able to supply new approved cats for 6 months. By the way this information had come directly from Jaguar not from the dealer.
Fortunately the dealer has managed to locate some alternative cats and is looking to fit these instead.
As you can imagine my father is slightly shell shocked and I thought you guys might have some interesting / useful advice and opinions, hence...
My questions are:
1. Should the new cats be covered by a Jag guarantee as they are being supplied by a Jag main dealer?
2. Should the dealer have looked into the reason the lamda sensors had gone after just 60,000 miles the first time they were replaced and therefore offer to cover the cost of the second set?
3. Does the catalytic converter company going bust and therefore not being able to supply replacements for 6 months sound feasible?
4. Has anyone got any advice regarding seeking some sort of goodwill claim against these costs?
Sorry for the long post - just thought all the details were important.
All opinions gratefully received.
Cheers
Paul
sorry this isnt too technical but i'm not really a technical sort of person! 
1/ i would have thought so but the age of the car might go against you
2/ yes siree and a forceful letter to the garage manager at that!
3/ this sounds like cobblers to me. if the company has gone bust then these catalytic converters will be sold off or the machines used to make them will be somewhere else, either way that particular company wont be doing anything for a very long time not just six months. Six months sounds like a long time for a garage to source parts and i fear it is just to buy them some (a lot) of time!
not much help but its an opinion!
1/ i would have thought so but the age of the car might go against you
2/ yes siree and a forceful letter to the garage manager at that!
3/ this sounds like cobblers to me. if the company has gone bust then these catalytic converters will be sold off or the machines used to make them will be somewhere else, either way that particular company wont be doing anything for a very long time not just six months. Six months sounds like a long time for a garage to source parts and i fear it is just to buy them some (a lot) of time!
not much help but its an opinion!
Paul, sorry to hear about the probs.
For what it's worth my father has been having a bit of a run-in with his (previously good) Jaguar dealer.
He's had numerous niggles with his 1999 S Type 4.0 (V8), and not all the faults were takled first visit, as they really should be, with a newish car, covered under warranty.
He's pretty annoyed with the service - in particular the way they now seem to employ 'fitters' rather than 'mechanics' the (as a generalisation former just swap parts 'till they hit the problem, the later have the ability and experience to trace faults) blindly changing parts in the hope that they hit the problem - and has been put off buying another new Jag.
His theory about Jaguar is that for a kick off, they've more cars in the range than ever, and also that both the S & X Types have a lot of niggles, both of which mean the (relatively unchanged) dealer network completely snowed under.
The days of 'red carpet' Jag dealer service are gone!
P.S.Is the 1996 XJR the straight 6 or V8?
>> Edited by DIGGA on Tuesday 19th February 16:24
>> Edited by DIGGA on Tuesday 19th February 16:25
For what it's worth my father has been having a bit of a run-in with his (previously good) Jaguar dealer.
He's had numerous niggles with his 1999 S Type 4.0 (V8), and not all the faults were takled first visit, as they really should be, with a newish car, covered under warranty.
He's pretty annoyed with the service - in particular the way they now seem to employ 'fitters' rather than 'mechanics' the (as a generalisation former just swap parts 'till they hit the problem, the later have the ability and experience to trace faults) blindly changing parts in the hope that they hit the problem - and has been put off buying another new Jag.
His theory about Jaguar is that for a kick off, they've more cars in the range than ever, and also that both the S & X Types have a lot of niggles, both of which mean the (relatively unchanged) dealer network completely snowed under.
The days of 'red carpet' Jag dealer service are gone!
P.S.Is the 1996 XJR the straight 6 or V8?
>> Edited by DIGGA on Tuesday 19th February 16:24
>> Edited by DIGGA on Tuesday 19th February 16:25
quote:
He took it to a main Jaguar dealer who identified the fault as being lamda sensors. This was slightly odd as they had been replaced at a cost of £800 (not covered by the warantee) only 4 weeks previously.
I assume that The Garage you are talking about supplied the new Lamdas??
I would be citing Goods Not Fit for Purpose/Merchantable Quality under Sale of Goods Act and get them to replace everything that has been damaged FOC.
I would have thought they'd be obliged to either supply you with a replacement car in the time yours is off the road or they would have to pay any reasonable costs that you incur in the hiring of a car.
I think a quick call to a solicitor is in order, or perhaps one of the nicely qualified gents who read this site will confirm what I have put
"The days of 'red carpet' Jag dealer service are gone"
Couldn't agree more. I remember when my father bought his second Jag (actually from the dealer in question). The service was as close to perfect as you could get (and it was a second hand vehicle as well).
Now, as you say, they appear to be fitting new parts in the hope that they will fix the fault rather than investigating the cause. Also, if the computer diagnostics do not identify the problem, then the problem doesn't exist !
Digga - The 1996 XJR is the straight six.
Cheers
Paul
Couldn't agree more. I remember when my father bought his second Jag (actually from the dealer in question). The service was as close to perfect as you could get (and it was a second hand vehicle as well).
Now, as you say, they appear to be fitting new parts in the hope that they will fix the fault rather than investigating the cause. Also, if the computer diagnostics do not identify the problem, then the problem doesn't exist !
Digga - The 1996 XJR is the straight six.
Cheers
Paul
I got a Toyota Dealer in Chelmsford to investigate a blowing Head to exhaust manifold gasket about 2-3 years ago.
It cost me about £230 to replace the Manifold gasket, which they said the problem was.
About a month later it started blowing again, they then said it was a warped manifold, and because the gasket was not at fault they could not refund me or take the £230 off the bill for a new manifold (which they then said I needed).The most they could offer me was a discount of about £30.
I took my business to another Garage (Toyota also) in Wickford who Identified the fault being the bolts coming lose in the head and not a warped manifold at all.
I never did get anything from the dealer in Chelmsford and haven't been back there since.
Trying to get dealers to give you a refund is difficult,even if it is obvious they are in the wrong, good luck.
It cost me about £230 to replace the Manifold gasket, which they said the problem was.
About a month later it started blowing again, they then said it was a warped manifold, and because the gasket was not at fault they could not refund me or take the £230 off the bill for a new manifold (which they then said I needed).The most they could offer me was a discount of about £30.
I took my business to another Garage (Toyota also) in Wickford who Identified the fault being the bolts coming lose in the head and not a warped manifold at all.
I never did get anything from the dealer in Chelmsford and haven't been back there since.
Trying to get dealers to give you a refund is difficult,even if it is obvious they are in the wrong, good luck.
Similar situation with Land Rover (odd how Ford is a common factor) Brake pads went metal to metal and warped discs, car was between service intervals, and under warrenty. Land Rovers response was wear and tear items not under warrenty that'll be £400 for new discs pads and labour thank you. My response was pads fair enough but the facts that LR do not fit a wear indicator light, or a "noise" wear indicator on the pads, and they had failed causing damage to the discs between approved services meant one of three things:
1. Service Interval is too long
2. Pads were inferior quality and unable to last between service's
3. Dealer had failed to detect the level of wear at the previous service and replace pads
none of these 3 were my fault obviously and as such I wouldn't be paying for the labour or the discs. The dealer past the buck to LR customer services saying they had to because ultimately they'd claim off LR and LR customer services politely said sod off. I wasn't happy persuede it at a higher level and it took several letters with references to "is this the start of the Ford factor" and "you didn't treat customers like this when BMW were in control" to get a full refund directly from LR for parts and labour as "a gesture of good will" it's all complete bollox but does show if you make enough noise with a strong case at a high enough level you will get your own way.
Just also on the cats subject you do realise that when they are "shot" they don't need to be replaced and can be opened and have the internals refurbished for a fraction of the cost to a "as good as new standard in a couple of days" Just a thought if you need details of a company that does it I can give contact details from work tomorrow just ask.
1. Service Interval is too long
2. Pads were inferior quality and unable to last between service's
3. Dealer had failed to detect the level of wear at the previous service and replace pads
none of these 3 were my fault obviously and as such I wouldn't be paying for the labour or the discs. The dealer past the buck to LR customer services saying they had to because ultimately they'd claim off LR and LR customer services politely said sod off. I wasn't happy persuede it at a higher level and it took several letters with references to "is this the start of the Ford factor" and "you didn't treat customers like this when BMW were in control" to get a full refund directly from LR for parts and labour as "a gesture of good will" it's all complete bollox but does show if you make enough noise with a strong case at a high enough level you will get your own way.
Just also on the cats subject you do realise that when they are "shot" they don't need to be replaced and can be opened and have the internals refurbished for a fraction of the cost to a "as good as new standard in a couple of days" Just a thought if you need details of a company that does it I can give contact details from work tomorrow just ask.
Sorry, to actually answer the questions.
quote:
My questions are:
1. Should the new cats be covered by a Jag guarantee as they are being supplied by a Jag main dealer?
Not neccessarily but I would expect an equivalent or better warrenty from the manufacturer
2. Should the dealer have looked into the reason the lamda sensors had gone after just 60,000 miles the first time they were replaced and therefore offer to cover the cost of the second set?
Yes most deffinetly I would expect the £800 from the first fit to be credited. If not as stated earlier Sale of goods act etc goods not fit for purpose, In reality you will probably get a "gesture of good will" from Jag directly and I would expect the secound set of Lambda sensors to be fitted FOC.
3. Does the catalytic converter company going bust and therefore not being able to supply replacements for 6 months sound feasible? Errrrrrr No. remember it was national headlines when the supplier of Discovery chassis went bust and it looked liked production would have to stop for 6 months and thousands of jobs go etc unless they were bailed out by Land Rover. Someone has got Cats and If it's the factory you want one (or two)
4. Has anyone got any advice regarding seeking some sort of goodwill claim against these costs? Customer services in writing and on the phone directly to manufacturer, make yourself a pain in the arse set a clear target of what you want from them and stick to it, In this case I'd be after £800 or replacement sensors FOC you will get if you keep on and don't be afraid to escalate the problem all the way to a letter to the Chairman if necessary. You tend to find that in big organisations they have a department to deal with his post and complaints, nothing gets results quicker, aslong as what your asking for is fair and reasonable which by the sounds of it it is.
quote:
My father owns a 1996 Supercharged Jaguar XJR. Recently the car would refuse to change gear when accelerating hard and would sound like the car had hit a rev limiter (but in 2nd & 3rd gear).
He took it to a main Jaguar dealer who identified the fault as being lamda sensors. This was slightly odd as they had been replaced at a cost of £800 (not covered by the warantee) only 4 weeks previously.
After looking into the problem further, they found that the catalytic converters had disintegrated and had basically fried the (new) lamda sensors. The end result is the need for new cats (x2) and new lamda sensors the bill is currently £2,500 !
All opinions gratefully received.
Cheers
Paul
Paul, after re-reading this I now consider a second opinion/RAC Engineers inspection may be in order to back up your case, my thinking is:-
1. Lambda sensors are the close loop part of the fuelling for the car; i.e. they keep the mixture at the right level, not too rich not too lean.
2. Cats reduce the emissions from the burnt fuel but hate over fuelling and will die if excessively over fuelled.
3. Cats run almost red hot so the lambda sensors must be pretty tough in the first place, and to fail due to heat after 4 weeks? not sure about that 'line'?
4. Was the lack of acceleration like over choking? or was it like the ECU gone mad not doing what you expect it to?
5. Wouldn't change gear? is it an auto box sharing the same ECU by any chance?
To me it may mean (I stress MAY)that the car was possibily mis-diagnosed in the first instance when the sensors were previously changed, i.e. too rich a mixture during service?, therefore assume that sensors are not feeding the right info back to the ECU 'so lets change them', without considering the ECU itself. Subsequently the cat has died possibly taking the new sensors (or not?) with them.
What you need is to get your hands on the info (printout?) that was dumped out of the ECU on both occasions and the old defective components, ask nicely and innocently at first, in case the records are lost/disappear once they realise your after a second opinion. Then get the second opinion as to what exactly happened. Then pursue a refund and or a good will payment,or pay the bill if all above board
. Not sure what the likes of the RAC would charge to carry out an engineers inspection but likely to be in the low hundreds, may be money well spent.
(All of the above is in my humble opinion and should be taken as informal advice from a layman with no legal redress!)
Harry
>> Edited by HarryW on Tuesday 19th February 23:12
Here's the latest update (no, the car has not been returned!).
After locating some new cats from an alternative supplier, the garage tested the car with the new cats and lamda sensors and found that this had not fixed the problem.
Following a 7 mile test drive not only had the problem not been solved, but the new cats and lamda sensors were destroyed once again.
The garage have put all the relevant parts (not entirely sure exactly which ones) onto one of their XJR's of a similar age and there is no problem. But once the parts are put back onto my father's car the problem is still there.
They thought that unburnt fuel was going into the cats and exploding due to the high temperatures and therefore destroying the lamda sensors and the cats. However they have not been able to identify if this is actually happening, and if so, why !
They have sent a fuel sample to Jaguar as they suspect fuel contamination could be the cause, and we are waiting from the results. If the fuel comes back with the all clear the garage are going to get a Jaguar engineer from Coventry to come down as they are (I quote) mystified !
Meanwhile, I suspect that the bill for the diagnosis and repair is rising rapidly and my father has still had no reply from Jaguary customer care...and we think TVR is bad !
>> Edited by pdavison on Friday 1st March 12:23
After locating some new cats from an alternative supplier, the garage tested the car with the new cats and lamda sensors and found that this had not fixed the problem.
Following a 7 mile test drive not only had the problem not been solved, but the new cats and lamda sensors were destroyed once again.
The garage have put all the relevant parts (not entirely sure exactly which ones) onto one of their XJR's of a similar age and there is no problem. But once the parts are put back onto my father's car the problem is still there.
They thought that unburnt fuel was going into the cats and exploding due to the high temperatures and therefore destroying the lamda sensors and the cats. However they have not been able to identify if this is actually happening, and if so, why !
They have sent a fuel sample to Jaguar as they suspect fuel contamination could be the cause, and we are waiting from the results. If the fuel comes back with the all clear the garage are going to get a Jaguar engineer from Coventry to come down as they are (I quote) mystified !
Meanwhile, I suspect that the bill for the diagnosis and repair is rising rapidly and my father has still had no reply from Jaguary customer care...and we think TVR is bad !
>> Edited by pdavison on Friday 1st March 12:23
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