993tt engine upgrades
Discussion
Anyone out there have any experience with how reliable the 993tt is with major engine tuning? Browsing through the Gemballa and Tech9 websites etc it seems powergains of up to 600bhp are available. The 540bhp Tech9 upgrade for 11k seems tempting. Car will be mostly weekend use. Any horror stories out there?
If the upgrades are done properly, you shouldn't have too many problems, although I don't think weekend use is really regular enough to keep all oil seals and bearings nicely wet etc.
The problem is, most conversions do not take into account peripheral components (because they are on a tuner's car with everything modded anyway). Things like diffs get much more grief, as will clutch, gearbox and driveshafts.
Maybe they can take the load, maybe not. One thing is for certain - Porsche only signed off long term reliability for the parts at the manufacturer's recommended output.
In my experience with tuned vehicles, the gain comes with some pain. If you don't mind having the occasional misfire meaning an unplanned trip to the garage, or for something to break when it wouldn't normally, or even just the increased wear on tyres and brake pads then go ahead. If you do, keep it standard. After all, the 993TT is still a very rapid car - and probably too rapid for public roads if we were being sensible about it.
I had planned to get my Lotus Carlton tuned when I bought it. After hearing about another owner's experiences with his 525bhp example, I stopped at an ITG air filter and pistonheads sticker!
Again, although there are times when I could handle a tad more power in the LC, it is still massively quick and almost insane to use on public roads at seven/tenths or above, as it confuses/scares the heck out of numpties. A standard 993TT is, of course, even quicker.
To be honest, there is little point modifying engine outputs without looking at the whole performance picture. A car with air conditioning, leather interior, hi-fi, rear seats etc is always going to have compromised acceleration and handling compared to one without. Not that I am against these things, but when 11k will buy you a second hand Radical, which will blow away a 993TT on the race track (where this kind of performance can be properly sampled) isn't tuning a luxury road car a little bit non-sensical?
All IMHO, of course.
Rgds
Domster
The problem is, most conversions do not take into account peripheral components (because they are on a tuner's car with everything modded anyway). Things like diffs get much more grief, as will clutch, gearbox and driveshafts.
Maybe they can take the load, maybe not. One thing is for certain - Porsche only signed off long term reliability for the parts at the manufacturer's recommended output.
In my experience with tuned vehicles, the gain comes with some pain. If you don't mind having the occasional misfire meaning an unplanned trip to the garage, or for something to break when it wouldn't normally, or even just the increased wear on tyres and brake pads then go ahead. If you do, keep it standard. After all, the 993TT is still a very rapid car - and probably too rapid for public roads if we were being sensible about it.
I had planned to get my Lotus Carlton tuned when I bought it. After hearing about another owner's experiences with his 525bhp example, I stopped at an ITG air filter and pistonheads sticker!
Again, although there are times when I could handle a tad more power in the LC, it is still massively quick and almost insane to use on public roads at seven/tenths or above, as it confuses/scares the heck out of numpties. A standard 993TT is, of course, even quicker.
To be honest, there is little point modifying engine outputs without looking at the whole performance picture. A car with air conditioning, leather interior, hi-fi, rear seats etc is always going to have compromised acceleration and handling compared to one without. Not that I am against these things, but when 11k will buy you a second hand Radical, which will blow away a 993TT on the race track (where this kind of performance can be properly sampled) isn't tuning a luxury road car a little bit non-sensical?
All IMHO, of course.
Rgds
Domster
From talking to people the German tuning companies do a very good job. I have an acquaintance with TWS (I think) tuned Turbo 2 - ~410 bhp. He races the car a lot on the track , and he's very good driver and is always pushing the car to the limit. He's never had any trouble with it.
The thing you have to remember about the 993 TT is that just about everything is over engineered with the engine. For example - the turbo's are designed to run at 1.8 bar - but porsche only run them at max 0.8 bar. That shows you for start the kind of tolerance levels the car is set too. I've done some extremely car drives up the side of mountains in the boiling summer sun here (35oC) and have never seen the engine oil temperature rise particulary. They are simply amazing pieces of engineering. So my point is that the tuning companies don't have to do much to boost the power of the engines. To get about 450-500 bhp, they basically simply put the GT2 turbos' amd extra oil cooler on,plus a few different mods. If you want to go above 500 bhp , then its generally advertised to put a heavy duty clutch in, as the standard will wear out too quick, and NEVER floor it in first - the gearing in first is notoriously weak - there's not too much small gears that can handle 500+bhp with VERY large traction (big tyres and AWD).
I'd definity go with RUF if you can afford it, as you'll more of the money back when you adventually sell the car. But TechArt and Gembella are great alternative choices aswell. Look for companies that have very strong motorsport connections.
The thing you have to remember about the 993 TT is that just about everything is over engineered with the engine. For example - the turbo's are designed to run at 1.8 bar - but porsche only run them at max 0.8 bar. That shows you for start the kind of tolerance levels the car is set too. I've done some extremely car drives up the side of mountains in the boiling summer sun here (35oC) and have never seen the engine oil temperature rise particulary. They are simply amazing pieces of engineering. So my point is that the tuning companies don't have to do much to boost the power of the engines. To get about 450-500 bhp, they basically simply put the GT2 turbos' amd extra oil cooler on,plus a few different mods. If you want to go above 500 bhp , then its generally advertised to put a heavy duty clutch in, as the standard will wear out too quick, and NEVER floor it in first - the gearing in first is notoriously weak - there's not too much small gears that can handle 500+bhp with VERY large traction (big tyres and AWD).
I'd definity go with RUF if you can afford it, as you'll more of the money back when you adventually sell the car. But TechArt and Gembella are great alternative choices aswell. Look for companies that have very strong motorsport connections.
I would agree with Dom that it is already fast enough for road use. If you have ever raced one or seen what it can do then you will be confirmed of that fact. In my Supra, I felt like my handbrake was still up when I raced the 993TT. It is an amazingly fast car.
Another thing to bear in mind is that although perhaps Porsche don't run the car on its possible max output, it may be because it will disturb the overall balance of the car. I know Supra's can be made to have near 800BHP and all that but even one with over 550BHP drives like a dragster. Its lightswitch sudden when it goes from nothing to immense acceleration. In my opinion this is fun for a while but gets tedious if you really want to enjoy driving your car.
A balanced car is probably better than an all out horsepower maxed up car.
Also, it is inevitable that you will wear done components more quickly and it seems that standard cars are more sought after and easier to sell on.
If you get the 993TT, let us know. I know you kick the ass off the 355 (if I get it, asshole dealer hasn't called back to confirm acceptance of my offer!!), but it would be good to see the two together. (Are you still in London?)
Good luck and regards
PS 993TT is absolutely lovely. Go for it.
Another thing to bear in mind is that although perhaps Porsche don't run the car on its possible max output, it may be because it will disturb the overall balance of the car. I know Supra's can be made to have near 800BHP and all that but even one with over 550BHP drives like a dragster. Its lightswitch sudden when it goes from nothing to immense acceleration. In my opinion this is fun for a while but gets tedious if you really want to enjoy driving your car.
A balanced car is probably better than an all out horsepower maxed up car.
Also, it is inevitable that you will wear done components more quickly and it seems that standard cars are more sought after and easier to sell on.
If you get the 993TT, let us know. I know you kick the ass off the 355 (if I get it, asshole dealer hasn't called back to confirm acceptance of my offer!!), but it would be good to see the two together. (Are you still in London?)
Good luck and regards
PS 993TT is absolutely lovely. Go for it.
Yeah, it's always nice to see 355s and Turbo 4s together, even when standing still!
Re: reliability, I'm sure that many components are overengineered, as bosshog said. That is the beauty of a Porsche. However, it will always be the things you least expect going wrong with a tuned car.
Things like injectors breaking prematurely because they are now acting at 95% of maximum pulse rate, rather than 80%... detonation caused because the fuel pump can't supply enough fuel at max boost with the standard fuel filter in place... Or the extra heat soak under the bonnet shortening the life of an alternator.
In short, everything needs to be considered - not just the engine. People like RUF do know what they are up to and will do a good job, but beware of the hidden mods that you will probably also need (they will normally quote these separately to keep costs down for the engine work).
Rgds
Domster
Re: reliability, I'm sure that many components are overengineered, as bosshog said. That is the beauty of a Porsche. However, it will always be the things you least expect going wrong with a tuned car.
Things like injectors breaking prematurely because they are now acting at 95% of maximum pulse rate, rather than 80%... detonation caused because the fuel pump can't supply enough fuel at max boost with the standard fuel filter in place... Or the extra heat soak under the bonnet shortening the life of an alternator.
In short, everything needs to be considered - not just the engine. People like RUF do know what they are up to and will do a good job, but beware of the hidden mods that you will probably also need (they will normally quote these separately to keep costs down for the engine work).
Rgds
Domster
Great comments Dom, totally agree. I (briefly in a moment of madness) thought my car could do woth more power (is the ever enough) and got in touch with RUF. For a modest hick in power (70 bhp) they performed a lot of work on other components, not just the engine. I think these tuning companies are mature enough to understand all the issues with turning a 408 bhp car. As Walter mentioned in another thread RUF are a bonefied (sp!) manufacture and therfore have to pass many tests to sell the car under their own name. Personally if I could afford it I would definitly consider having work done by one of these companies, but obviously I would expect some extra maintance and work. You don't get 400->600 bhp extra with some extra costs!
The thing is if you don't have the car already, the 993TT is a INCREDIBLY fast car in all situations, I would be very nervous driving a 600 bhp version on public roads especially in the UK where speed limits and traffic are so bad. If you overtake a car you'll hit 110 mph before you even begin to realise , then you've got to haul off all that momentum before the next corner.....
The thing is if you don't have the car already, the 993TT is a INCREDIBLY fast car in all situations, I would be very nervous driving a 600 bhp version on public roads especially in the UK where speed limits and traffic are so bad. If you overtake a car you'll hit 110 mph before you even begin to realise , then you've got to haul off all that momentum before the next corner.....
Guys, thanks for the detailed replies - excellent advice. I guess a moderate upgrade will strike a good balance between grin size and financial pain. I previously reasoned that all components must have a minimum of 20% tolerance for extra stress, so overall a 20% bhp rise should be within the ball park. Not sure how much use the car will get. The girlfriend should be dropping me off to the train station for weekday commuting in her car. Mine will be used a great deal each weekend though!
Ninja - I've followed your posts regarding forthcoming 355. It's one of the most beautiful cars ever made in my opinion - nice one. The enjoyment of that howling fezza v8 will be sex on wheels. If only I could absorb the running costs, oh well...!
Am I still in london? - Yes, work in City Road and live in Clerkenwell weekdays, travel to girlfriends in Maldon at weekends. I'm selling a place I had converted for investment this summer; releasing some cash for the porker. Can't bloody wait!!
Cheers for comments, all.
As a matter of interest, a quick check on the rennlist forum etc indicates that the 993TT seems to be 'safely' tuneable to around 500 bhp.
Above that figure, tuning escalates quickly in terms of complication and cost.
And - as bosshog pointed out - even pushing 470bhp or so may require a list of unexpected parts to do properly (ie not just a chip).
All tuneable cars seem to have this threshold when things suddenly get more expensive, On the Ford Cosworth it is about 330bhp. On the Lotus Carlton it is about 420bhp.
As a matter of interest, a quick check on the rennlist forum etc indicates that the 993TT seems to be 'safely' tuneable to around 500 bhp.
Above that figure, tuning escalates quickly in terms of complication and cost.
And - as bosshog pointed out - even pushing 470bhp or so may require a list of unexpected parts to do properly (ie not just a chip).
All tuneable cars seem to have this threshold when things suddenly get more expensive, On the Ford Cosworth it is about 330bhp. On the Lotus Carlton it is about 420bhp.
Apparently, Colin has tuned an RS to 330 bhp, normally aspirated. It belongs to a chap called Adrian Palmer, who selflessly acts as Colin's guinea pig for mods... so 930 Motorsport conversions seem to be well and truly tried/tested.
>> Edited by domster on Thursday 14th February 10:32
>> Edited by domster on Thursday 14th February 10:32
It has often been said before that the upgrades that result in the greatest increase in speed are those made to the driver 
Another alternative might be to spend some of the money on high performance driver training - not casting any aspersions as to your ability, but I think we would all agree that there are always areas for improvement!
All IMHO etc etc
Another alternative might be to spend some of the money on high performance driver training - not casting any aspersions as to your ability, but I think we would all agree that there are always areas for improvement!
All IMHO etc etc
Take a look at www.993tt.com
There are'nt that many around so it's worth joining the Porsche Club for advice and the mag
I also live in Maldon (with a 944 turbo)
Good luck (nice car)
There are'nt that many around so it's worth joining the Porsche Club for advice and the mag
I also live in Maldon (with a 944 turbo)
Good luck (nice car)
I'm new to this site/forum but wow!- talk about like-minded fellow individuals - the whole PistonHead site is just awesome and your collective views are generally so utterly spot on it's FANTASTIC! So thanks for existing!
Anyway, just a quick entree in response to this 993TT upgrade question. I run one of these crackers and to be honest, in base form, whilst it was v.rapid off the line with stupendous handling and generally went quick in most gears there were one or two slight flatspots where you couldn't quite blow away hard charging VW TDi's with Cerbera 4.5-like conviction (my previous 'experience'!). I joined the PCGB and spoke to their techy guru (Steve Kevlin) and explained the prob...given my location he recommended I spoke to Phil Hindley at Tech9. Oh dear (in a good way!) Phil's operation is just fantastic and I can't recommend him enough. Just talking to him and getting the PCGB's backing was enough to persaude me...
The car got the CarGraphic treatment (although Tech9 is now heavily into TechArt): sports exhaust [well worth it after my de-catted Cerby given the 993TT's plumbing which mutes things too much], plus all the usual upgrades to the ECU, turbos, cams, filters, coolers, etc. Phil also advised me on the ideal suspension set-up for non-track work which I recall is an Eibach affair that delivers a great compromise betwixt handling and NOT grounding myself every few seconds on our disgraceful roads.
There are various power stages but Phil advised me that given my level of experience (not great - but then HE is a Porsche Cup racer!)the 490 BHP job might be the one. Which is where it's at now. The ultimate CarGraphic upgrade was 540 BHP which requires the racing clutch and a new set of cahoonies for me. I THINK I've found the perfect balance. So what's it like?
Well all I can say is 'transformation' - I would wager not too disimilar in effect to the RUF Turbo efforts which are around 520 BHP. I briefly had an EVO VII Extreme which was ridiculous but I promise you, the Tech 9 490 conversion is noticeably quicker. And it's tractable and in 3000 miles I've had no probs (other than an even more profligate taste for 97/98 octane juice!). The torque wells up so sensationally it's hilarious and above certain speeds the car 'sits down' on it's suspension better than anything I've ever driven. Clearly the car IS over-engineered as other members have said on this subject so I have no worries about long-term reliability. So if you have a 993TT - get it beefed up - you won't look back.
(But you know, I went past a Passat 1.9 TDi last Sunday (OK I was in 6th at a 'certain speed') and the guy driving it dropped a cog and had a go (why do they bother?) But,erm... I still feel I need more stallions! Now where's the medication... )
Anyway, just a quick entree in response to this 993TT upgrade question. I run one of these crackers and to be honest, in base form, whilst it was v.rapid off the line with stupendous handling and generally went quick in most gears there were one or two slight flatspots where you couldn't quite blow away hard charging VW TDi's with Cerbera 4.5-like conviction (my previous 'experience'!). I joined the PCGB and spoke to their techy guru (Steve Kevlin) and explained the prob...given my location he recommended I spoke to Phil Hindley at Tech9. Oh dear (in a good way!) Phil's operation is just fantastic and I can't recommend him enough. Just talking to him and getting the PCGB's backing was enough to persaude me...
The car got the CarGraphic treatment (although Tech9 is now heavily into TechArt): sports exhaust [well worth it after my de-catted Cerby given the 993TT's plumbing which mutes things too much], plus all the usual upgrades to the ECU, turbos, cams, filters, coolers, etc. Phil also advised me on the ideal suspension set-up for non-track work which I recall is an Eibach affair that delivers a great compromise betwixt handling and NOT grounding myself every few seconds on our disgraceful roads.
There are various power stages but Phil advised me that given my level of experience (not great - but then HE is a Porsche Cup racer!)the 490 BHP job might be the one. Which is where it's at now. The ultimate CarGraphic upgrade was 540 BHP which requires the racing clutch and a new set of cahoonies for me. I THINK I've found the perfect balance. So what's it like?
Well all I can say is 'transformation' - I would wager not too disimilar in effect to the RUF Turbo efforts which are around 520 BHP. I briefly had an EVO VII Extreme which was ridiculous but I promise you, the Tech 9 490 conversion is noticeably quicker. And it's tractable and in 3000 miles I've had no probs (other than an even more profligate taste for 97/98 octane juice!). The torque wells up so sensationally it's hilarious and above certain speeds the car 'sits down' on it's suspension better than anything I've ever driven. Clearly the car IS over-engineered as other members have said on this subject so I have no worries about long-term reliability. So if you have a 993TT - get it beefed up - you won't look back.
(But you know, I went past a Passat 1.9 TDi last Sunday (OK I was in 6th at a 'certain speed') and the guy driving it dropped a cog and had a go (why do they bother?) But,erm... I still feel I need more stallions! Now where's the medication... )
Hi & welcome. Good to hear from someone else with the modifying bug. That was a fairly old thread you dug up there. I'd always planned to get a 993tt for some time but the more I looked into it the more wary I became. I
Running cost issues put me off a little; wiring loom, first gear, clutch, turbo life etc. Anyway I ended up putting a deposit on an '02 C2, which I plan to upgrade. Mind you, I'm now having second thoughts on whether it will be enough for me. Maybe I'm playing far too safe and should get a nutter turbo. Argghh...
Running cost issues put me off a little; wiring loom, first gear, clutch, turbo life etc. Anyway I ended up putting a deposit on an '02 C2, which I plan to upgrade. Mind you, I'm now having second thoughts on whether it will be enough for me. Maybe I'm playing far too safe and should get a nutter turbo. Argghh...
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