Need serious help!!!
Discussion
Hi guys,
Got a serious problem. Finally got the engine back together after doing the head gasket, started her up and run her for 10 minutes, let the temperature get up to normal, oil pressure was fine at 50lb and all of a sudden a squealing noise from the front. Stopped the engine, removed the belt encase it was the water pump and turned her over again, squealing started again, continued for 2 minutes while we tried to source the noise then 'Thump, thump thump thump' coming loudly from the block, which was getting louder till we rushed to switch off the engine.
We've checked the valves, push rods and water pump. The engine rotates freely on starter motor with no unusual noise. I've removed the sump bolts and anti-roll bar but can't get the sump past the chassis, from what i can see of inside it, there appears to be no bits of engine.
So any idea's what the noise could be, its sounds terminal IMHO.
Really need idea's guys
Cheers Ad
Got a serious problem. Finally got the engine back together after doing the head gasket, started her up and run her for 10 minutes, let the temperature get up to normal, oil pressure was fine at 50lb and all of a sudden a squealing noise from the front. Stopped the engine, removed the belt encase it was the water pump and turned her over again, squealing started again, continued for 2 minutes while we tried to source the noise then 'Thump, thump thump thump' coming loudly from the block, which was getting louder till we rushed to switch off the engine.
We've checked the valves, push rods and water pump. The engine rotates freely on starter motor with no unusual noise. I've removed the sump bolts and anti-roll bar but can't get the sump past the chassis, from what i can see of inside it, there appears to be no bits of engine.
So any idea's what the noise could be, its sounds terminal IMHO.
Really need idea's guys
Cheers Ad
When you put the tappets etc back together what did you do in terms of tappet clearances?
I'm thinking off the top of my head and probably totally wrong here but if you have hydraulic tappets and have tightened up the tappets too far once they pump up with oil maybe the valves have come into contact with the pistons.
What makes me think it probably isn't this is the fact that you said it ran OK for 10 minutes - the hydraulic tappets would pump up much quicker than that.
Another possibility maybe that something has fell off and gone into a piston (eg a screw) and is being thumped up against the heads.
I know the timing gears failing used to be an issue on the essex V6 - not sure about the cologne engine.
Whatever it is I have a distinct feeling those heads are coming off again
Edited to add - I remembered a friend of mine had a similar thing - a bit had fallen off one of his new spark plugs and was being banged about in the cylinder. He didn't find it till he stripped the engine though.
Have you altered the distributor position (timing) at all?
I'm thinking off the top of my head and probably totally wrong here but if you have hydraulic tappets and have tightened up the tappets too far once they pump up with oil maybe the valves have come into contact with the pistons.
What makes me think it probably isn't this is the fact that you said it ran OK for 10 minutes - the hydraulic tappets would pump up much quicker than that.
Another possibility maybe that something has fell off and gone into a piston (eg a screw) and is being thumped up against the heads.
I know the timing gears failing used to be an issue on the essex V6 - not sure about the cologne engine.
Whatever it is I have a distinct feeling those heads are coming off again
Edited to add - I remembered a friend of mine had a similar thing - a bit had fallen off one of his new spark plugs and was being banged about in the cylinder. He didn't find it till he stripped the engine though.
Have you altered the distributor position (timing) at all?
Edited by Barkychoc on Saturday 10th January 21:52
Good thinking Chris, but an S1.5 is unlikely to have hydraulic tappets. To the OP: if you want to check, look on the cylinder head above no 3 or no 4 cyclinder (to the left of the spark plug). There will be an F or a K embossed there, about 1cm high. F means (originally) ordinary tappets, K means hydraulic. That's assuming the heads have never been changed of course...
Even if it DID have hydraulic tappets, I think it's unlikely (although maybe not impossible) to adjust them so that they would "pump up" to the extent that the valves met the pistons.
From the sound of the OP, I'm thinking camshaft (which would imply a tappet problem if nothing else has been disturbed) or the crankshaft front pulley or the oil seal behind it. It doesn't look, from the photos on the other thread, as if anay of those parts have been disturbed though. I can't think of anything else at the front of the block, if the OP has removed the fan belt and eliminated the water pump.
Chris - also noted your edit about the distributor, and I was going to suggest that, even although it's at the back not the front, but didn't want to make either me or the OP look daft!
Even if it DID have hydraulic tappets, I think it's unlikely (although maybe not impossible) to adjust them so that they would "pump up" to the extent that the valves met the pistons.
From the sound of the OP, I'm thinking camshaft (which would imply a tappet problem if nothing else has been disturbed) or the crankshaft front pulley or the oil seal behind it. It doesn't look, from the photos on the other thread, as if anay of those parts have been disturbed though. I can't think of anything else at the front of the block, if the OP has removed the fan belt and eliminated the water pump.
Chris - also noted your edit about the distributor, and I was going to suggest that, even although it's at the back not the front, but didn't want to make either me or the OP look daft!
Edited by tvrgit on Saturday 10th January 22:00
I was thinking if the dizzy has been disturbed then as it warms up and does the ECU learn thing the timing might be so far out that its pre igniting, but as with any forum we're all stabbing in the dark really.
I honestly would be surprised if its as serious as big ends - with no load it needs hardly any oil to keep things in check.
I used to work at a college (a long long time ago) and the vehicle engineering section used to deliberately destroy an engine for the students to observe the damage - they would drain the oil out while it was running and it could sometimes take 40 minutes till it seized or went pop, I was amazed it lasted so long.
It used to get a good audience though! Probably wouldn't be allowed now with Health & safety.
I honestly would be surprised if its as serious as big ends - with no load it needs hardly any oil to keep things in check.
I used to work at a college (a long long time ago) and the vehicle engineering section used to deliberately destroy an engine for the students to observe the damage - they would drain the oil out while it was running and it could sometimes take 40 minutes till it seized or went pop, I was amazed it lasted so long.
It used to get a good audience though! Probably wouldn't be allowed now with Health & safety.
Edited by Barkychoc on Saturday 10th January 22:08
tvrgit said:
Barkychoc said:
I was thinking if the dizzy has been disturbed then as it warms up and does the ECU learn thing the timing might be so far out that its pre igniting, but as with any forum we're all stabbing in the dark really.
Yep I'd agree.The ECU does some sort of mysterious learning process at initial startup - and sets timing etc (I think) with the first warm up / cool down cycle - but there are limits and if the dizzy is too far out it might be getting it wrong.
Tvrgit has fiddled with the V6 far more than me so maybe I should just shut up!
PS worst case scenario LINK
Edited by Barkychoc on Saturday 10th January 22:17
Barkychoc said:
tvrgit said:
Barkychoc said:
I was thinking if the dizzy has been disturbed then as it warms up and does the ECU learn thing the timing might be so far out that its pre igniting, but as with any forum we're all stabbing in the dark really.
Yep I'd agree.The ECU does some sort of mysterious learning process at initial startup - and sets timing etc (I think) with the first warm up / cool down cycle - but there are limits and if the dizzy is too far out it might be getting it wrong.
Tvrgit has fiddled with the V6 far more than me so maybe I should just shut up!
he said in his best patronising voice.The basic distributor stting has to be right. The ECU adjusts it according to engine speed and load etc but it does so from what it thinks is a known "base". If the base is wrong then it's all wrong.
There is indeed a "learning curve" - the ECU is an adaptive system, but if the battery has been disconnected then the ECU loses all of its adapted settings and starts again from its default settings, and has to relearn some of the sensor inputs. You will have disconnected the battery when taking the alternator off, so it could be that.
So I was thinking of the base distributor timing, or lubrication of the distributor bearing, perhaps partly seizing and turning the dizzy slightly under the clamp bolt so that the timing goes all to hell.
I had that once years ago on a 1.3 Escort which started running as rough as a very rough thing - it turned out that the dizzy had turned almost 1/4 of a turn, only the vacuum advance prevented it turning further. The spark was happening so late in the cycle that the exhaust was glowing red hot when I opened the bonnet at night - gave me a bleeding fright!
It may be worth taking the plugs out and turning over by hand, if something is in a cylinder and catching you will feel it.I recently had this on a Triumph (Bike)engine whereby the end of the spark plug had dropped off and was stuck in the top of a piston.
Hope its somethging simpler though, like timing.
Hope its somethging simpler though, like timing.
Barkychoc said:
I used to work at a college (a long long time ago) and the vehicle engineering section used to deliberately destroy an engine for the students to observe the damage - they would drain the oil out while it was running and it could sometimes take 40 minutes till it seized or went pop, I was amazed it lasted so long.
I would concur - I had a colleague recently (a b
y engineer too) who didn't bother to check oil levels regularly on his wife's Zafira. Anyway it stopped on the A38 one day having slowly lost power then stalled. She called the AA, who checked the dipstick as part of his diagnosis and it took 4 litres to get to normal (about 4.5 litres is dry to normal). Once topped up (and the engine now cold) the AA restarted it and it is still going strong 5 years and some 40-50k miles later. I couldn't believe it hadn't fully seized. The engine is the 2.0 diesel.Sorry a bit off thread but hopefully to add some "good vibes" to the doom that I kow would be going through my head if I was in your position. I can't add to anything above on the tecnical front as anything really would be stabbing in the dark
Mark
Cheers guys,
I've turned the engine over without the plugs in and there is no noise. It's unlikely to be 'pinking', it sounded a lot like something had seized and come loose. We hadn't set the timing when we started the engine, stuck it at TDC and let it warm up before we did it, sadly never got that far.
The noise sounded like a hitting noise inside the block as opposed to a preemptive detonation. Bloody gutted tho, I'll check all your idea's anyway guys, can never be too sure.
P.S. cheers for the engine link, hope I don't need it
I've turned the engine over without the plugs in and there is no noise. It's unlikely to be 'pinking', it sounded a lot like something had seized and come loose. We hadn't set the timing when we started the engine, stuck it at TDC and let it warm up before we did it, sadly never got that far.
The noise sounded like a hitting noise inside the block as opposed to a preemptive detonation. Bloody gutted tho, I'll check all your idea's anyway guys, can never be too sure.
P.S. cheers for the engine link, hope I don't need it
Well she's back down to block again. Managed to get the sump off and the insides look fine, removed the heads and everything looks good so I'm now short of idea's. Getting an engine hoist tomorrow to remove the block, then stripping it right down.
Still devastated, but one of my mates mentioned uprating the cams so I'm tralling the Burtons catalogue for a suitable replacement. Any thoughts on my problem or cam suggestions?
Cheers Ad
Still devastated, but one of my mates mentioned uprating the cams so I'm tralling the Burtons catalogue for a suitable replacement. Any thoughts on my problem or cam suggestions?
Cheers Ad
One thing I've heard of happening on the old 2.8 engine was a cam bearing spinning in the block - though I can't see why this would have happened if you didn't disturn the bottom end.
The cam bearing used to just shift I don't mean rotate fully but the upshot was it would cut off the oil supply to one of the heads as it went via the bearing through a hole in it - but maybe on the 2.9 it could cut the oil off going somewhere else?
Wild guesses, I guess its best that you strip it now.
Take loads of photos.
Any sign of copper on the shell bearings is bad news - it should be a dull grey coating on top of the copper base metal.
The cam bearing used to just shift I don't mean rotate fully but the upshot was it would cut off the oil supply to one of the heads as it went via the bearing through a hole in it - but maybe on the 2.9 it could cut the oil off going somewhere else?
Wild guesses, I guess its best that you strip it now.
Take loads of photos.
Any sign of copper on the shell bearings is bad news - it should be a dull grey coating on top of the copper base metal.
Sometimes it is worth stating the obvious but assuming it wasn't making the noise before you removed/replaced the heads then it HAS to be something you did whilst refitting everything back together! it might be worth retracing your steps to make sure you did everything correctly.
I know you have since removed the heads again but was oil being distributed to the top of the engine ? ie bathed in oil, if it was then it is unlikely to be an oil starvation problem. Good luck
Cheers.....Tony..
I know you have since removed the heads again but was oil being distributed to the top of the engine ? ie bathed in oil, if it was then it is unlikely to be an oil starvation problem. Good luck
Cheers.....Tony..
A mate of mine works at Gaydon Motor Museum and has had a chat with a few of the old boys there. They generally agree that it sounds as if a main bearing on the 'big end' has gone.
Engine's coming fully out tonight so at least i've got something to look for now and it's not horrendously expensive.
The theory is, due to inlet manifold gasket failure causing the engine oil to emulsify, an oil way has become blocked near the bearings. Engine would run fine until it got hot, then 'boom'. At least with the engine stripped and out, I can check all the oil ways are clear and double check the rest of the block.
Still pissed off it broke but gives me a chance to do some fettling and i'll know the engine pretty well by the end.
Thanks for all your comments, reassuring to know i've got somewhere to turn when I need advice and to pick a few brains, cheers again Ad
Engine's coming fully out tonight so at least i've got something to look for now and it's not horrendously expensive.
The theory is, due to inlet manifold gasket failure causing the engine oil to emulsify, an oil way has become blocked near the bearings. Engine would run fine until it got hot, then 'boom'. At least with the engine stripped and out, I can check all the oil ways are clear and double check the rest of the block.
Still pissed off it broke but gives me a chance to do some fettling and i'll know the engine pretty well by the end.
Thanks for all your comments, reassuring to know i've got somewhere to turn when I need advice and to pick a few brains, cheers again Ad
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