What were the dirtiest, lowest-blows of WWII?
Discussion
History is written by the victors and in war both sides will do some pretty nasty things and worry about the morality/justifications later, but I was wondering if there were any not-so famous events that slipped under the radar? Everyone knows about the Holocaust which is probably too big to ever truly comprehend, the Japanese experiments at Unit 731 aren't anything like as famous (perhaps because we sought to benefit from them?), but are disgusting in the extreme, nonetheless.
America's nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been the source of countless keyboard-wars, and Pearl Harbour still lives in infamy... though if the Japanese had somehow won/not been utterly defeated, it might have been viewed differently.
Most history documentaries only concentrate on the same-old stuff which World At War already did so many times better. Are there any low-points or atrocities commited which dont really get the print they perhaps derserve? Being British, the only things I can think of off the top of my head are the bombing of Dresden, maybe the Dambusters raid (though, ironically, both were much more successful than expected) and the Laconia incident.
Laconia incident (Allied plane bombs U-Boats engaged in civilian rescue after they radioed for assistance):
http://www.uboataces.com/battle-laconia.shtml
Unit 731 Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
Anything else out there; big or small?
America's nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been the source of countless keyboard-wars, and Pearl Harbour still lives in infamy... though if the Japanese had somehow won/not been utterly defeated, it might have been viewed differently.
Most history documentaries only concentrate on the same-old stuff which World At War already did so many times better. Are there any low-points or atrocities commited which dont really get the print they perhaps derserve? Being British, the only things I can think of off the top of my head are the bombing of Dresden, maybe the Dambusters raid (though, ironically, both were much more successful than expected) and the Laconia incident.
Laconia incident (Allied plane bombs U-Boats engaged in civilian rescue after they radioed for assistance):
http://www.uboataces.com/battle-laconia.shtml
Unit 731 Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
Anything else out there; big or small?
Without wanting to be self deprecating, and as a Brit, I recognise the bombing of Dresden as a nuclear assault without the actual nuclear weapons.
The war was a dirty business, but had the D-Day failed, it's widely considered that the whole of northern france, the channel islands, and the south of england would have been laid waste with anthrax or some other equally nasty fate.
WWII was a low blow period.
The war was a dirty business, but had the D-Day failed, it's widely considered that the whole of northern france, the channel islands, and the south of england would have been laid waste with anthrax or some other equally nasty fate.
WWII was a low blow period.
I suppose on consideration my own low blow would be Stalin's own extermination of the Polish army whilst in "cahoots" with Hitler. On it's own, and by comparison with the rest of the war it isn't the worst thing that happened.
For a good while the world had no choice but to celebrate Stalin, and his subsequent effort against the Nazis, when Stalin realised that he'd helped start something that was then a threat even to him.
To that end, an estimated 30,000,000 Russians died defending (and expanding) Russia, mainly to satisfy Stalin's ego. That's one hell of an ego.
That's probably the worst aspect of WWII.
For a good while the world had no choice but to celebrate Stalin, and his subsequent effort against the Nazis, when Stalin realised that he'd helped start something that was then a threat even to him.
To that end, an estimated 30,000,000 Russians died defending (and expanding) Russia, mainly to satisfy Stalin's ego. That's one hell of an ego.
That's probably the worst aspect of WWII.
Edited by dilbert on Saturday 3rd January 05:03
dilbert said:
I suppose on consideration my own low blow would be Stalin's own extermination of the Polish army whilst in "cahoots" with Hitler. On it's own, and by comparison with the rest of the war it isn't the worst thing that happened.
For a good while the world had no choice but to celebrate Stalin, and his subsequent effort against the Nazis, when Stalin realised that he'd helped start something that was then a threat even to him.
To that end, an estimated 30,000,000 Russians died defending (and expanding) Russia, mainly to satisfy Stalin's ego. That's one hell of an ego.
That's probably the worst aspect of WWII.
stalin would be my vote too. the series on bbc 2 was hard to take in parts - particularly the murder of 20,000 polish officers in one night!For a good while the world had no choice but to celebrate Stalin, and his subsequent effort against the Nazis, when Stalin realised that he'd helped start something that was then a threat even to him.
To that end, an estimated 30,000,000 Russians died defending (and expanding) Russia, mainly to satisfy Stalin's ego. That's one hell of an ego.
That's probably the worst aspect of WWII.
Edited by dilbert on Saturday 3rd January 05:03
i read about a number of ss units holed up in a forest at forst segeburg who were refusing to down tolls despite the german surrender, and were fighting 2 battalions of british infantry. admiral doenitz [now in charge of the armed forces] decided to send in the german paratroopers to kill them and enforce the surrender. quite a large battle apparently, and done with british authority. also read a story about a canadian officer forcing german pow's to execute their own co's in a firing squad.
Edited by shirt on Saturday 3rd January 05:51
Jasandjules said:
There were many atrocities committed by both sides.
It was war, and people who play by all the rules usually lose. Also, mistakes are made and decisions made at the time with limited information can later be found incorrect. We tend to forget the pressures of total war as it has been 63 years since we were in one.As for attacking U-boats engaged in rescuing civilians, I don't know the story but those attacking doubtless took the view that a few civilian lives then was a smaller price than the hundreds or thousands of sailors and tons of shipping and supplies that woud probably be lost if they let the U-boats go.
glazbagun said:
What were the dirtiest, lowest-blows of WWII?
As apposed to what? The noble and justified killings of a world war?Crazy. Im with Simpo. Youre talking about killing people. What else is there? The rules are, there are no rules.
Look at Guantanamo, fictional WoMD or Menezes.
dilbert said:
Without wanting to be self deprecating, and as a Brit, I recognise the bombing of Dresden as a nuclear assault without the actual nuclear weapons.
The war was a dirty business, but had the D-Day failed, it's widely considered that the whole of northern france, the channel islands, and the south of england would have been laid waste with anthrax or some other equally nasty fate.
WWII was a low blow period.
Do not forget Coventry, The Warsaw Ghetto uprising, the bombing/assault on Rotterdam. Apart from the Jewish community in Europe there was the attempted extermination of many other ethnic groups. The war was a dirty business, but had the D-Day failed, it's widely considered that the whole of northern france, the channel islands, and the south of england would have been laid waste with anthrax or some other equally nasty fate.
WWII was a low blow period.
I am not having a poke at the Americans, but their treatment of German POWs after the war does not get the airing it deserves.
"Eisenhower made the decision to reclassify German prisoners of war (POWs) in U.S. custody as Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEFs), thus depriving them of the protection of the Geneva convention. As DEFs, their food rations could be lowered and they could be compelled to serve as unfree labor (see Eisenhower and German POWs)."
As a result thousands perished through starvation. The statistics showed that German prisoners suffered less fatalities under British/commonwealth captivity than under the US.
General Pattern was disgusted by this and fell out badly with Eisenhower.
"Eisenhower made the decision to reclassify German prisoners of war (POWs) in U.S. custody as Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEFs), thus depriving them of the protection of the Geneva convention. As DEFs, their food rations could be lowered and they could be compelled to serve as unfree labor (see Eisenhower and German POWs)."
As a result thousands perished through starvation. The statistics showed that German prisoners suffered less fatalities under British/commonwealth captivity than under the US.
General Pattern was disgusted by this and fell out badly with Eisenhower.
Wilhelm Gustloff, an Ocean Liner sunk by the Russians with over 9,000 killed..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Gustloff_(shi...
SS Cap Arcona, similar fate, sunk by the British, over 5,000 concentration camp survivors drowned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Cap_Arcona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Gustloff_(shi...
SS Cap Arcona, similar fate, sunk by the British, over 5,000 concentration camp survivors drowned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Cap_Arcona
During World War II, S. S. Vyner Brooke sailed from Singapore with 64 Australian nursing sisters amongst its 192 evacuees. On entering In the Banka Straits the ship was attacked by Japanese planes - the ship was hit repeatedly. The Bridge was totally destroyed, and the steering stopped operating. On fire, the Captain gave orders for the ship to be abandoned. Twenty minutes later the ship sank. Most of the survivors who had spent all afternoon and night in the water, landed on a beach near Muntok where they set up a camp and commenced tending the wounded. A couple of days later they were discovered by a Japanese patrol. Those that could walk were marched round a small headland, lined up and shot - those lying wounded were bayoneted to death. Just one survived the bayoneting. The nurses were then ordered to walk into the sea, on reaching waist height the Japanese commenced to machine gun them and all were killed save one......Sister Vivien Bullwinkle, who was shot through the throat. Vivien said in a later interview that she lay floating for what seemed hours before raising her head to find the beach deserted - save for her dead comrades floating around her and those that had already died on the beach. She was taken to a prisoner of war camp - barely alive and suffering from sun and sea exposure - her chances of survival were very slim. Sun blisters, meant her mouth was completely closed and doctors fed her through a small opening at the corner of her mouth by means of a small glass dropper. After recovering Vivien was able to relate to others what had actually happened on the beach but was ordered to stay silent for her own safety - the Japanese certainly wouldn't have allowed the only surviving eye witness of this massacre to go on living. Vivien survived the War, and was able to tell her story to the War crimes tribunal.
http://www.awm.gov.au/people/1906.asp
http://www.awm.gov.au/people/1906.asp
Edited by Burnedout on Saturday 3rd January 10:02
Edited by Burnedout on Saturday 3rd January 10:11
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