Vista + Canon software + colour profile issue
Discussion
Getting seriously fed up now and would welcome some help. Answers to buy dedicated kit not welcome.
I use Canon Digitial photo professional to do minor alterations and convert from RAW to JPEG. What I then do is use the Vista gallery software to preview work before uploading online.
When viewing the images (both raw and jpeg) in the Canon software it matches. If I use either Microsoft gallery viewr or IE once files are uploaded I notice a significant amount of difference in the colour than when viewed inside Digital photo professional. It was actually when viewing BW files I notice it the most as the IE/MS version is slightly grey rather than the BW inside hte Canon software.
I have set the Canon software to use sRGB icc profile as compared to using the monitor profile for Vista. I then set it to use the Operating system profile and it changes the view but its still different. Its as if the Canon software is correctly applying the colour profile but Vista is not.
I do plan to get a decent calibration system but before that arrives can anyone advise on how to ensure what one software displays is the same as the other?
I've tried setting the Monitor profile to sRGB but tbh which ever profile I use within Vista it appears to always look the same. The weird thing being that my prints match how they appear on screen within the Canon software.
Here is an example of what I am describing:
The image on the left is the RAW file in DPP, the middle is the jpeg inside Gallery preview (vista app) and the right image is the same jpeg but inside DPP.
I use Canon Digitial photo professional to do minor alterations and convert from RAW to JPEG. What I then do is use the Vista gallery software to preview work before uploading online.
When viewing the images (both raw and jpeg) in the Canon software it matches. If I use either Microsoft gallery viewr or IE once files are uploaded I notice a significant amount of difference in the colour than when viewed inside Digital photo professional. It was actually when viewing BW files I notice it the most as the IE/MS version is slightly grey rather than the BW inside hte Canon software.
I have set the Canon software to use sRGB icc profile as compared to using the monitor profile for Vista. I then set it to use the Operating system profile and it changes the view but its still different. Its as if the Canon software is correctly applying the colour profile but Vista is not.
I do plan to get a decent calibration system but before that arrives can anyone advise on how to ensure what one software displays is the same as the other?
I've tried setting the Monitor profile to sRGB but tbh which ever profile I use within Vista it appears to always look the same. The weird thing being that my prints match how they appear on screen within the Canon software.
Here is an example of what I am describing:
The image on the left is the RAW file in DPP, the middle is the jpeg inside Gallery preview (vista app) and the right image is the same jpeg but inside DPP.
update: To confuse me further the problem now appears to be how both IE and Vista gallery display images. If I set the image as my desktop it matches how it appears inside DPP. If I open the jpeg inside MS paint it appers the same as in DPP so it appears my issue is IE related
anyone got a clue?
anyone got a clue?
Hmm.
Let me report what I can see ...
HP Notebook running Vista and IE 7. Screen calibrated back in April:
The PH shaded background is blueish. Your left and right images in the sample are blue/grey.
The central image is a greyish sepia.
Dell Notebook - hi res screen, running XP and IE 7. Calibrated monitor but not checked recently.
PH shaded background is grey. L and R images are grey rather than blue. Central image is a warmer sepia than from the HP.
I know that this screen has some issues with certain blue tones but it seems OK here.
Sony Desktop = old 15" monitor but calibrated. (Again not very recently ...) Running XP and Firefox 3 with colour awareness activated.
PH shading is a warmer grey (but the screen brightness is set lower) compared to the Dell but it is grey. The sepis central image is slighly warmer or perhaps just a tad darker.
Somewhere along the line things are getting changed - I'm wondering about the Vista colour management settings ...
Let me report what I can see ...
HP Notebook running Vista and IE 7. Screen calibrated back in April:
The PH shaded background is blueish. Your left and right images in the sample are blue/grey.
The central image is a greyish sepia.
Dell Notebook - hi res screen, running XP and IE 7. Calibrated monitor but not checked recently.
PH shaded background is grey. L and R images are grey rather than blue. Central image is a warmer sepia than from the HP.
I know that this screen has some issues with certain blue tones but it seems OK here.
Sony Desktop = old 15" monitor but calibrated. (Again not very recently ...) Running XP and Firefox 3 with colour awareness activated.
PH shading is a warmer grey (but the screen brightness is set lower) compared to the Dell but it is grey. The sepis central image is slighly warmer or perhaps just a tad darker.
Somewhere along the line things are getting changed - I'm wondering about the Vista colour management settings ...
yes thats my finding too, I'd rather be in the blueish than sepia area. I wonder if its the new WCS over riding things??? So long as they print out as I see then thats ok but its just another level of frustration to deal with. Would appear the canon software overrides whatever Vista is saying and displays with the profile you set.
> I'm wondering about the Vista colour management settings ...
Whilst searching to try to resolve some CM issues I was facing with a HP printer, I found a few articles realting to Vista CM overriding local profiles etc so this may well be happening to you. As I don't run Vista, I didn't bookmark them but you should be able to find something telling you how to disable it. If I get a minute, I'll see if I've still got something in my IE history.
Whilst searching to try to resolve some CM issues I was facing with a HP printer, I found a few articles realting to Vista CM overriding local profiles etc so this may well be happening to you. As I don't run Vista, I didn't bookmark them but you should be able to find something telling you how to disable it. If I get a minute, I'll see if I've still got something in my IE history.
thanks
I bet IE and Gallery use a different system to everything else! When the file is opened in anything other than those (I havent used other browsers yet) the graphic is displayed as per DPP (left and right of attached image). Even MSPaint displays it as per DPP.
I'll look at disabling the colour profiling. I'm happy my monitor is pretty much a good calibration as is (matching to prints = most important)now its a case of getting the typical viewing medium to match.
I bet IE and Gallery use a different system to everything else! When the file is opened in anything other than those (I havent used other browsers yet) the graphic is displayed as per DPP (left and right of attached image). Even MSPaint displays it as per DPP.
I'll look at disabling the colour profiling. I'm happy my monitor is pretty much a good calibration as is (matching to prints = most important)now its a case of getting the typical viewing medium to match.
FWIW I spent some time playing with the Vista control panel tool settings and NOTHING I did seemed to make any difference at all to my screen. However my edited images look pretty much the same on all three screens I have in regular use and in whatever application I use - though I have not used the MS apps you mentioned.
The prints also come out close to the screen images EXCEPT for the issues I know I have with certain shades of medium blue in some cases. So I would be suspicious of the Gallery apps.
The prints also come out close to the screen images EXCEPT for the issues I know I have with certain shades of medium blue in some cases. So I would be suspicious of the Gallery apps.
Do you use DPP at all? If so could you confirm if a BW image has the same tone as in Gallery viewer (the basic image previewer in Vista)?
some conversation appears that WCM/S zeros the black point which could account for the sepia look
colour images appear wamer too than in the editing software.
some conversation appears that WCM/S zeros the black point which could account for the sepia look
colour images appear wamer too than in the editing software.
If you speak to some specialist Camera shops you should be able to find someone who you can pay to come out and measure/configure the colour profiles of your PC & printer professionally. This involves proper measurement of the screen & printer to produce custom colour profiles.
The issue you've hit upon is the difference between using the Vista viewer and the output. Frankly you shouldn't trust Windows or it's inbuilt tools to correctly deal with colour profiling. Ideally you really need to start using Adobe Photoshop as your default app for all this stuff as Photoshop's accurate processing of colour profiles is one of it's powerful "hidden" features. Adobe have given an awful lot of attention to the development of Colour Management in PS, and there are downloadable ICC profiles both within PS and downloadable which you can try. Note that Photoshop uses it's own internal colour management engine rather than the Windows one - that is why you can trust PS but not windows or most other windows based photography apps.
However even with Photoshop to get top quality results then you need to consider having an expert to create some custom ICC profiles for your own setup. This involves getting someone to measure your monitor/printer/paper & produce some ICC profiles accordingly. Whilst this does involve some cost, it's going to be a lot cheaper than buying the colour management measuring equipment yourself.
If you contact your local specialist camera suppliers you should be able to contact someone who can do this for you. With even a good quality reference colour chart costing £300 and good measuring kit at £1000 then it's better just to get someone in IMHO.
The good news is that once this is done, not only will your printer outputs match your camera & your screen, but also by supplying your custom ICC profile any commercial repo company will also get the correct colours.
Hope this is of some help -
p.s. I'm sure I'm right in thinking that Internet Explorer creates a whole new problem, as it uses it's own inbuilt colour profile and actully represents far fewer actual colours than other windows apps, so images viewed in IE may well look different. You might want to compare it with Firefox?
The issue you've hit upon is the difference between using the Vista viewer and the output. Frankly you shouldn't trust Windows or it's inbuilt tools to correctly deal with colour profiling. Ideally you really need to start using Adobe Photoshop as your default app for all this stuff as Photoshop's accurate processing of colour profiles is one of it's powerful "hidden" features. Adobe have given an awful lot of attention to the development of Colour Management in PS, and there are downloadable ICC profiles both within PS and downloadable which you can try. Note that Photoshop uses it's own internal colour management engine rather than the Windows one - that is why you can trust PS but not windows or most other windows based photography apps.
However even with Photoshop to get top quality results then you need to consider having an expert to create some custom ICC profiles for your own setup. This involves getting someone to measure your monitor/printer/paper & produce some ICC profiles accordingly. Whilst this does involve some cost, it's going to be a lot cheaper than buying the colour management measuring equipment yourself.
If you contact your local specialist camera suppliers you should be able to contact someone who can do this for you. With even a good quality reference colour chart costing £300 and good measuring kit at £1000 then it's better just to get someone in IMHO.
The good news is that once this is done, not only will your printer outputs match your camera & your screen, but also by supplying your custom ICC profile any commercial repo company will also get the correct colours.
Hope this is of some help -
p.s. I'm sure I'm right in thinking that Internet Explorer creates a whole new problem, as it uses it's own inbuilt colour profile and actully represents far fewer actual colours than other windows apps, so images viewed in IE may well look different. You might want to compare it with Firefox?
Edited by corozin on Monday 22 December 16:16
stigmundfreud said:
Do you use DPP at all? If so could you confirm if a BW image has the same tone as in Gallery viewer (the basic image previewer in Vista)?
some conversation appears that WCM/S zeros the black point which could account for the sepia look
colour images appear wamer too than in the editing software.
A very brief play with a pre-existing colour jpg file fully desaturated in DPP (using my Dell WUXGA screen notebook) suggests a warm colouration compared to the Vista view. Vista clouds tend to be bluer.some conversation appears that WCM/S zeros the black point which could account for the sepia look
colour images appear wamer too than in the editing software.
If I de-saturate using DPP the result is a warm grey rather then a blue grey.
On the other hand another colour image - a sample jpg from dpreview from the Canon5D2 set they originally posted way back when - looks exactly the same in Vista or in an application.
quick thanks to you guys
Interestingly the images on XP appeared fine which would "suggest" visa. However I just installed the software from the new 5dmk2 and all now matches up again.
Thanks for advice regarding getting someone in, the screen matched the prints so it was more an issue of where this differential was creeping in. All appears ok again!
Thanks
Interestingly the images on XP appeared fine which would "suggest" visa. However I just installed the software from the new 5dmk2 and all now matches up again.
Thanks for advice regarding getting someone in, the screen matched the prints so it was more an issue of where this differential was creeping in. All appears ok again!
Thanks
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