Another tenancy help thread, what is it with estate agents?
Discussion
Apologies for a longwinded post and question.
My girlfriend has a problem with her letting agents due to a fault with the dishwasher.
Some background:
The property was bought by a young couple (one of whom worked at the current letting agents), who did some modernisation, lived in the property for a year, then decided to let it so they could afford to go travelling for a year. Ever since my OH moved in there has been a problem of very slow draining drains. A couple of months ago, the bath started draining into the kitchen ceiling, the agents arranged for a plumber, who found that the bath had been installed completely wrong, and sorted the immediate problem, but did nothing about the drains.
For the last week or so, the dishwasher already in the house has been leaving food particles all over the plates, but it is draining properly, although it would seem slowly. She rang the agents, who told her it was her problem, and she should pay to fix it. I had a look through her contract, and the (I believe) salient clauses are below:
Clause 3.4, under the heading 'General Liabilities, Services and Utilities'
The tenant agrees to be held liable for the fair net costs involved in carrying out repair and maintenance to the premises or its fixtures or fittings where such action is required as a result of negligence, or significant breach of this agreement, or mis-use, by the tenant or his invited guests or visitors.
Clause 3.45, under the heading 'The premises, its fixtures and fittings'
The tenant agrees to notify the landlord or his agent as immediately as practicable of any defect, damage or disrepair which develops or occurs at the premises which might be, or might reasonably be expected to become, a hazard or danger to life and limb or to the fabric of the premises itself. The tenant must not carry out or authorise repairs himself, except to take reasonable steps in an emergency to restrict or diminish such immediate dangers or damage.
Clause 4.3, under the heading 'Landlord's obligations'
The landlord agrees to comply with the requirements of section 11 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 which imposes obligations on the landlord to repair the structure and exterior (including drains, getters (sic) and external pipes) of the premises; to keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the premises for supply of water, gas and electricity and for sanitation (including basins, sinks, baths and sanitary conveniences, but not other fixtures, fittings and appliances for making use of water, gas or electricity); to keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the premises for space heating and heating water. In determining the standard of repair required by the landlord under this clause, regard shall be had to the age, character and prospective life of the premises and the locality in which it is situated.
[wipes brow]
Now, going by the above clauses:
a) she is only liable to damage cause due to mis-use or negligence (which would be difficult seeing as she runs the dishwasher as per the manufacturers instructions, and runs dishwasher cleaner through it once a month.
b) the agents should authorise and arrange the repair, and if found to be at fault, my OH can be passed these costs on, as long as they are fair and reasonable.
c) the dishwasher is a provided fitting for sanitary convenience, therefore the landlord is responsible, and long as the statements above hold true and she is not found to be at fault through negligence or mis-use.
I have spoken to the woman who told my OH to repair it herself, she immediately got on the defensive, actually quite aggressively, then once I started quoting the above clauses told me that she wasn't going to deal with it, and she'd get her boss to call.
I'm now waiting for his call.
What do you guys think? Is she responsible, or the agents? Is a dishwasher a sanitary convenience?
Also, what are the laws concerning deposits, as the agents are holding the deposit, and there is a statement saying that any interest paid on the deposit will be kept by them. Isn't this in contravention of the new laws regarding the holding of deposits?
Ta muchly for any help you can provide. (Don't worry, her backdoor is getting kicked in for requiring me to type so much, and for putting you guys through the inconvenience of reading such verbose legalise!!)
Sam
My girlfriend has a problem with her letting agents due to a fault with the dishwasher.
Some background:
The property was bought by a young couple (one of whom worked at the current letting agents), who did some modernisation, lived in the property for a year, then decided to let it so they could afford to go travelling for a year. Ever since my OH moved in there has been a problem of very slow draining drains. A couple of months ago, the bath started draining into the kitchen ceiling, the agents arranged for a plumber, who found that the bath had been installed completely wrong, and sorted the immediate problem, but did nothing about the drains.
For the last week or so, the dishwasher already in the house has been leaving food particles all over the plates, but it is draining properly, although it would seem slowly. She rang the agents, who told her it was her problem, and she should pay to fix it. I had a look through her contract, and the (I believe) salient clauses are below:
Clause 3.4, under the heading 'General Liabilities, Services and Utilities'
The tenant agrees to be held liable for the fair net costs involved in carrying out repair and maintenance to the premises or its fixtures or fittings where such action is required as a result of negligence, or significant breach of this agreement, or mis-use, by the tenant or his invited guests or visitors.
Clause 3.45, under the heading 'The premises, its fixtures and fittings'
The tenant agrees to notify the landlord or his agent as immediately as practicable of any defect, damage or disrepair which develops or occurs at the premises which might be, or might reasonably be expected to become, a hazard or danger to life and limb or to the fabric of the premises itself. The tenant must not carry out or authorise repairs himself, except to take reasonable steps in an emergency to restrict or diminish such immediate dangers or damage.
Clause 4.3, under the heading 'Landlord's obligations'
The landlord agrees to comply with the requirements of section 11 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 which imposes obligations on the landlord to repair the structure and exterior (including drains, getters (sic) and external pipes) of the premises; to keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the premises for supply of water, gas and electricity and for sanitation (including basins, sinks, baths and sanitary conveniences, but not other fixtures, fittings and appliances for making use of water, gas or electricity); to keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the premises for space heating and heating water. In determining the standard of repair required by the landlord under this clause, regard shall be had to the age, character and prospective life of the premises and the locality in which it is situated.
[wipes brow]
Now, going by the above clauses:
a) she is only liable to damage cause due to mis-use or negligence (which would be difficult seeing as she runs the dishwasher as per the manufacturers instructions, and runs dishwasher cleaner through it once a month.
b) the agents should authorise and arrange the repair, and if found to be at fault, my OH can be passed these costs on, as long as they are fair and reasonable.
c) the dishwasher is a provided fitting for sanitary convenience, therefore the landlord is responsible, and long as the statements above hold true and she is not found to be at fault through negligence or mis-use.
I have spoken to the woman who told my OH to repair it herself, she immediately got on the defensive, actually quite aggressively, then once I started quoting the above clauses told me that she wasn't going to deal with it, and she'd get her boss to call.
I'm now waiting for his call.
What do you guys think? Is she responsible, or the agents? Is a dishwasher a sanitary convenience?
Also, what are the laws concerning deposits, as the agents are holding the deposit, and there is a statement saying that any interest paid on the deposit will be kept by them. Isn't this in contravention of the new laws regarding the holding of deposits?
Ta muchly for any help you can provide. (Don't worry, her backdoor is getting kicked in for requiring me to type so much, and for putting you guys through the inconvenience of reading such verbose legalise!!)
Sam
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Can understand that I'm not fully objective about this, but seeing as sinks, basins, etc. are considered sanitary conveniences, a kitchen sink is really only for washing plates/scrubbing veg, hence my reasoning that a fitting supplied by the landlord for washing plates is also a sanitary convenience. Accept that I may be wrong though... 
Doesn't sanitary conveniences imply those fixtures and fittings used for cleaning, including provided dishwashers and washing machines. (I'd assume that the exclusion is regarding items such as kettles etc. which are not for sanitary purposes, merely for heating water for drinking. Again, I may be wrong and accept this)Agree that the drainage may not be the reason for the dishwasher not working, but equally, would state that it is used as per the instructions, so definitely not due to user error.
Also, main concern is that the agent has told the tenant to repair it herself or arrange for repairs to be done, as per Clause 3.45 above, all repairs or maintenance must NOT be carried out by the tenant, nor can the tenant authorise repairs, so surely the agent has instructed the tenant to act outside the stated terms of contract?
In order for my OH to comply with the contract, should not the agent, under the terms of the contract, arrange for the repairs to be carried out, and if applicable (due to negligence, mis-use or whatever as per the clauses quoted, BUT determined by a qualified engineer, not a lettings clerk over the phone) charge them on to my OH?
She will indeed be leaving as soon as practicable, got to give two months notice, not a great time to be looking to move, and we'll be living together. As far as the state of the house, it's in a far better state now than when she moved in, there was no inventory done, and she took pictures of all issues the day of moving in.
If you're alleging a more wide-ranging problem with the drains you will need to be able to demonstrate the problem really exists. If you fill a bucket with water and pour it into the toilet fairly quickly at the same time as flushing the loo the outflow pipe should have the capacity to take the whole lot without the pan filling to the top and threatening to overflow onto the floor. Give it a try.
If it all works properly then you probably don't have a major drains problem of a kind which would upset a dishwasher. You'd just need to check the immediate area of the D/W outlet to make sure that's running OK too.
If the water backs up vigorously in the pan or if you find water coming UP other drains then yes, there's a problem.
If it all works properly then you probably don't have a major drains problem of a kind which would upset a dishwasher. You'd just need to check the immediate area of the D/W outlet to make sure that's running OK too.
If the water backs up vigorously in the pan or if you find water coming UP other drains then yes, there's a problem.
The agents are acting on the landlord's behalf, as said, the landlords are travelling and as such are out of the country.
Ozzie, as said, I'm also not convinced it is an issue with the drains, but I don't know enough about dishwashers to be able to be certain. I also don't know whether the separate issues she is having with slow drainage are to do with the main drain or the smaller feeds from fixtures such as the bath and sink that are very slow moving.
My main concern is that she is expressly contracted to not repair, or authorise repairs to the fixtures and fittings. So I am loath to pull the dishwasher out to try to find the cause, in case, in my ineptitude, I cause further damage, and hence my girlfriend is forced to both pay for the damages caused, as well as being found to be in breach of the contract, and potentially evicted pronto, leaving her and the two kids homeless. A verbal communication to 'fix it yourself', does not seem enough exemption to assure me that this scenario cannot occur.
Regardless of the cause of the problem, going by the contract, it would seem that any repairs must be arranged by the landlord or his agents (the lettings firm), and if applicable, the costs passed on. This is the most pressing matter, the question of whether any repairs are my OH's responsibility is a separate issue that we would have longer to resolve.
Ozzie, as said, I'm also not convinced it is an issue with the drains, but I don't know enough about dishwashers to be able to be certain. I also don't know whether the separate issues she is having with slow drainage are to do with the main drain or the smaller feeds from fixtures such as the bath and sink that are very slow moving.
My main concern is that she is expressly contracted to not repair, or authorise repairs to the fixtures and fittings. So I am loath to pull the dishwasher out to try to find the cause, in case, in my ineptitude, I cause further damage, and hence my girlfriend is forced to both pay for the damages caused, as well as being found to be in breach of the contract, and potentially evicted pronto, leaving her and the two kids homeless. A verbal communication to 'fix it yourself', does not seem enough exemption to assure me that this scenario cannot occur.
Regardless of the cause of the problem, going by the contract, it would seem that any repairs must be arranged by the landlord or his agents (the lettings firm), and if applicable, the costs passed on. This is the most pressing matter, the question of whether any repairs are my OH's responsibility is a separate issue that we would have longer to resolve.
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