Sat Nav - Technological toys or essential guidance
Discussion
I am considering buying an aftermarket Sat Nav system to help with navigation around this crowded island.
The trouble is that most of them are £1,000-£2,000 and I am reluctant to part with that amount of cash if the units are a pile of sh*te.
I am interested in hearing from anyone who regularly uses one of these units - in particular how easy are they to use when on the road, what are the guidance instructions like and what are the shortcomings.
To be useful to me, I think that any system should have mapping down to street level and be able to cope with all the one way systems found in towns. I also like the feature to input by postcode.
One system I am interested in hearing about is the Ipaq PDA based system
www.compaq.co.uk/navigation/
because the cost is reasonable and the PDA will be able to be used for other things as well as navigation.
The trouble is that most of them are £1,000-£2,000 and I am reluctant to part with that amount of cash if the units are a pile of sh*te.
I am interested in hearing from anyone who regularly uses one of these units - in particular how easy are they to use when on the road, what are the guidance instructions like and what are the shortcomings.
To be useful to me, I think that any system should have mapping down to street level and be able to cope with all the one way systems found in towns. I also like the feature to input by postcode.
One system I am interested in hearing about is the Ipaq PDA based system
www.compaq.co.uk/navigation/
because the cost is reasonable and the PDA will be able to be used for other things as well as navigation.
Palm has far less horsepower though, and is less of a general purpose device than something like an iPaq.
However, religious zeal aside, (
), neither a Palm or a Pocket PC is going to give you a remotely usable screen when on the move. And where are you going to mount it in a TVR? Don't forget, you'll need brackets, a cigarette lighter charger, an audio connection to the stereo if you want voice nav (you do, but not sure if the Palm/PocketPC software does that).
Much better, shirly, to get a DIN E stereo with a funky flip out screen and voice nav. Far fewer brackets and stuff to get tangled up in, and much less distracting (and therefore safer) on the move.
>> Edited by Marshy on Tuesday 29th January 17:59
However, religious zeal aside, (
), neither a Palm or a Pocket PC is going to give you a remotely usable screen when on the move. And where are you going to mount it in a TVR? Don't forget, you'll need brackets, a cigarette lighter charger, an audio connection to the stereo if you want voice nav (you do, but not sure if the Palm/PocketPC software does that). Much better, shirly, to get a DIN E stereo with a funky flip out screen and voice nav. Far fewer brackets and stuff to get tangled up in, and much less distracting (and therefore safer) on the move.
>> Edited by Marshy on Tuesday 29th January 17:59
quote:
Palm has far less horsepower though, and is less of a general purpose device than something like an iPaq.
.....and yuppak has microshit inside. General purpose ? What do you mean ? Makes espresso coffee ?
quote:
Don't forget, you'll need brackets, a cigarette lighter charger, an audio connection to the stereo if you want voice nav (you do, but not sure if the Palm/PocketPC software does that).
.....brackets in my car just working fine. While on move I usually don't touch a nav setup. It's unsafe, you know ? And, mounted at eye level, the device is in sight near a steering wheel.... Audio, who needs audio, why audio ? An arrow is not enough ?
quote:
Much better, shirly, to get a DIN E stereo with a funky flip out screen and voice nav. Far fewer brackets and stuff to get tangled up in, and much less distracting (and therefore safer) on the move.
...it's the same thing like a fixed system. You simply can't take it with you. Oh yes, and I simply forgot the funky screen that makes chicks happy and
Guru
>> Edited by go-go on Wednesday 30th January 08:38
quote:
.....brackets in my car just working fine. While on move I usually don't touch a nav setup. It's unsafe, you know ? And, mounted at eye level, the device is in sight near a steering wheel.... Audio, who needs audio, why audio ? An arrow is not enough ?
An arrow requires a glance away from the road and I would find this distracting - its like the new BMW 7 series where there's a bloody great computer in the centre of the car - it REQUIRES you to look at the screen to get at the next function.
Gut reaction is that voice command backed up with screen display would be the most effective way of transmitting information to the driver.
I must admit that I have never seen McRae or Burnsy with a visual display to give them directions. Should I look harder???
When I change the car everything goes with me. Even a phone system because now I am using Bluetooth connections.
Once: Phone system (Support,mic,speaker,antenna), Nav system(lot of money and maps that were capable only to confuse you), Car audio (amplifier,cd-changer and so on), Satellite allarm system (jesus, they jammed it too...).
Then I became nauseated and feel like someone was stealing my money.
Now: No fixed phone system (only external antenna), Nav system (no comment), Good Audio is today a normal thing, and Satellite alarm system... (my system, in house made, not jammable…
) And finally, I am making the software for Palm or IPaq if I want.... and what I want, religious zeal aside.
Yes I like TVR and don't like new BMW series 7.
Guru
P.S. Ok if nav has audio it's better, and it is not impossible even on handheld device. By the way, i am not driving like McRae on public roads, here we have too many morons driving like wannabe McRae's
>> Edited by go-go on Wednesday 30th January 09:23
Before you consider a purchase, I'd check out the demo cars that guys like Pioneer and Alpine have to offer... and visit a few specialists, get some first hand experience.
If you decide to go for sat nav, I'd get a system that is designed for the car, rather than a portable like the iPaq... they're not really up to the job.
A full install will comprise of a CD/DVD with a screen and a GPS receiver. Agreed these aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for.
You need to look at how these things work. Some give you a drivers perspective of the road ahead, others tell you to turn in "x" metres... some do both and some are interchangeable. Ideally you want a system that gives you good enough advice without having to look at the screen (eyes off the road is not good news). Watch out for beeps and chimes and voices that become annoying after two minutes...
The other point to remember is that no matter how good, GPS for civilian use is not that accurate (5m sq) for reasons of "national security" which means sometimes they get it wrong.
Finally, don't forget that road layouts change and CD's / DVD's need updating to keep up...
Hope this helps. BTW I used to work on sat nav screen design...
If you decide to go for sat nav, I'd get a system that is designed for the car, rather than a portable like the iPaq... they're not really up to the job.
A full install will comprise of a CD/DVD with a screen and a GPS receiver. Agreed these aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for.
You need to look at how these things work. Some give you a drivers perspective of the road ahead, others tell you to turn in "x" metres... some do both and some are interchangeable. Ideally you want a system that gives you good enough advice without having to look at the screen (eyes off the road is not good news). Watch out for beeps and chimes and voices that become annoying after two minutes...
The other point to remember is that no matter how good, GPS for civilian use is not that accurate (5m sq) for reasons of "national security" which means sometimes they get it wrong.
Finally, don't forget that road layouts change and CD's / DVD's need updating to keep up...
Hope this helps. BTW I used to work on sat nav screen design...
I thought GPS accuracy had gone up, as of about a year ago?
I'm not going to enter the argument about Palm vs. PocketPC. No point, you're obviously not going to listen to any sort of reasoned argument. (Processor speed, built in expandability, multimedia playback, etc, etc.)
As for mounting stuff like that in a TVR - forget it! There *is* nowhere to put a bracket to hold the device without seriously mangling expensive trim. Then you've got the power connector to plumb in somewhere... if you don't want to get into the dash, then you have to plug into the cigarette lighter in the driver's door (in a Chimeara, anyway). And to trivially do the audio side of things you have to put one of those cassette adapters in the stereo and have a wire trailing to the PDA. Again, it's that or have the dash apart.
Basically, it's going to look a right mess. I'll take a DIN E stereo/screen and a box in the boot thanks.
I'm not going to enter the argument about Palm vs. PocketPC. No point, you're obviously not going to listen to any sort of reasoned argument. (Processor speed, built in expandability, multimedia playback, etc, etc.)
As for mounting stuff like that in a TVR - forget it! There *is* nowhere to put a bracket to hold the device without seriously mangling expensive trim. Then you've got the power connector to plumb in somewhere... if you don't want to get into the dash, then you have to plug into the cigarette lighter in the driver's door (in a Chimeara, anyway). And to trivially do the audio side of things you have to put one of those cassette adapters in the stereo and have a wire trailing to the PDA. Again, it's that or have the dash apart.
Basically, it's going to look a right mess. I'll take a DIN E stereo/screen and a box in the boot thanks.
Look Marsy,
I am not some script kiddie (i am aging too). I have BOTH of them and lot of other techno gadgets becuse this is my work apart "not going to listen to any sort of reasoned argument". I am simply too old to argue about palm vs. ipaq or pc vs. mac. And i am too young to histerically defend my, often erroneus, choices. I like practical things. Palm is smaller, cheaper and stable. Ipaq is bigger, heavier, instable and with lot of capabilities. It's a question of personal taste. I use them both, but prefer Palm. If C****q makes something better, you bet, i will use it.m I am for logic: "Innovative but wise".
And i forgot to mention that with bluetooth I can be connected via GPRS network in internet even in the car. Which naviagation system offers this for an reasonable cost ?
Yes, you're right about TVR, but when I use that sort of car, nav. is only optional thing. I saw that even you use sedan, I beleive, for every day use.
Ciao
I am not some script kiddie (i am aging too). I have BOTH of them and lot of other techno gadgets becuse this is my work apart "not going to listen to any sort of reasoned argument". I am simply too old to argue about palm vs. ipaq or pc vs. mac. And i am too young to histerically defend my, often erroneus, choices. I like practical things. Palm is smaller, cheaper and stable. Ipaq is bigger, heavier, instable and with lot of capabilities. It's a question of personal taste. I use them both, but prefer Palm. If C****q makes something better, you bet, i will use it.m I am for logic: "Innovative but wise".
And i forgot to mention that with bluetooth I can be connected via GPRS network in internet even in the car. Which naviagation system offers this for an reasonable cost ?
Yes, you're right about TVR, but when I use that sort of car, nav. is only optional thing. I saw that even you use sedan, I beleive, for every day use.
Ciao
On a purely accuracy basis you do need to have an antenna that is mounted for the best position on a vehicle. A hand GPS system (I have a Garmin eTrex) is OK in the open, but in a car it has problems. If the GPS addon device for a Palm or Ipaq is actually on the device it will not be as accurate as an installed antenna system (like a DIN stereo one for example). Just take a look at cars like the new 7-series, there is an extra "blob" on the back of the car before the rear window and for the GPS antenna....
I did have it explained to me about radio waves (some principle for mobile phones and microwaves) and the position on a car - but seem to have forgotten the details. Admittedly a TVR is mainly GRP so there shouldnt be too much of a problem, but there will be interference and some degredation of the signal. Also, trees, forests and large metal objects send the thing astray. Try driving down Moorgate in London and get a GPS signal - too many tall buildings will great chunks of metal in them....
The pop-out screen GPS navigation systems are really quite good (external antenna), but expensive. You could try the ones where there is no pop-out screen and the system doubles up as a CD / Radio. There is a fairly large screen on the front and instructions are displayed on there (mainly in one or two colours). Blaupunkt do one and it also contains voice prompting too - but at a more reasonable £700 notes...
Oh, and on the Palm / Ipaq note - battery usage and screen displays are going to be a problem. An Ipaq has a backlit screen but eats the batteries (the Navman system uses the on-board batteries so expect it to be even worse). Therefore you need to have an external cigarette connector to this for it to be of any use. Not sure about Palm, but some do have backlights and some dont so not perfect either. Nice idea but I think the practicalities are something different.
Personally I use a PC with Autoroute 2002 and my handheld GPS with cable. The handheld is small and light and can be positioned in the front window. Batteries last ages so no problems there. A cable connects this to the PC and you can dynamically plot the route on the screen. I dont have navigation facilities or voice prompting, but it is excellent if you are lost or not sure where you need to go to....
Oh, and one small technical problem with some GPS devices - update speed. Normally you connect using the NMEA 4800 protocol which is SLOW. Dynamic plots work OK, but tend to tell you where you have just been rather than where you currently are. A proper in-car GPS system will have a faster update speed which will be much more accurate. Worth checking these things out before you buy. Nip down to Curry's or Dixons and check out the Navman and see if it meets your requirements - Not sure where to go for the Palm one, but I am sure there are some places that can let you trial one.....
Hope this helps....
Cheers,
Paul
I did have it explained to me about radio waves (some principle for mobile phones and microwaves) and the position on a car - but seem to have forgotten the details. Admittedly a TVR is mainly GRP so there shouldnt be too much of a problem, but there will be interference and some degredation of the signal. Also, trees, forests and large metal objects send the thing astray. Try driving down Moorgate in London and get a GPS signal - too many tall buildings will great chunks of metal in them....
The pop-out screen GPS navigation systems are really quite good (external antenna), but expensive. You could try the ones where there is no pop-out screen and the system doubles up as a CD / Radio. There is a fairly large screen on the front and instructions are displayed on there (mainly in one or two colours). Blaupunkt do one and it also contains voice prompting too - but at a more reasonable £700 notes...
Oh, and on the Palm / Ipaq note - battery usage and screen displays are going to be a problem. An Ipaq has a backlit screen but eats the batteries (the Navman system uses the on-board batteries so expect it to be even worse). Therefore you need to have an external cigarette connector to this for it to be of any use. Not sure about Palm, but some do have backlights and some dont so not perfect either. Nice idea but I think the practicalities are something different.
Personally I use a PC with Autoroute 2002 and my handheld GPS with cable. The handheld is small and light and can be positioned in the front window. Batteries last ages so no problems there. A cable connects this to the PC and you can dynamically plot the route on the screen. I dont have navigation facilities or voice prompting, but it is excellent if you are lost or not sure where you need to go to....
Oh, and one small technical problem with some GPS devices - update speed. Normally you connect using the NMEA 4800 protocol which is SLOW. Dynamic plots work OK, but tend to tell you where you have just been rather than where you currently are. A proper in-car GPS system will have a faster update speed which will be much more accurate. Worth checking these things out before you buy. Nip down to Curry's or Dixons and check out the Navman and see if it meets your requirements - Not sure where to go for the Palm one, but I am sure there are some places that can let you trial one.....
Hope this helps....
Cheers,
Paul
Take a peek (and specifications about update time) 
www.navman-mobile.com/
I agree:
>> Edited by go-go on Wednesday 30th January 12:29
www.navman-mobile.com/
I agree:
quote:
Personally I use a PC with Autoroute 2002 and my handheld GPS with cable. The handheld is small and light and can be positioned in the front window. Batteries last ages so no problems there. A cable connects this to the PC and you can dynamically plot the route on the screen. I dont have navigation facilities or voice prompting, but it is excellent if you are lost or not sure where you need to go to....
>> Edited by go-go on Wednesday 30th January 12:29
Just like to point out that the iPaq is hardware. It will run other software, like Linux.
Back on topic: what surprises me is that no-one has (as yet) managed to combine two quite obviously complementary applications of GPS: navigation and road safety enhancement (thats speed trap warnings BTW). I'd like a Geodesy, and I'd also like SatNav. Why do I need two separate GPS units? Why can't SatNav tell me "turn right in 200 yards, and watch out for the speed camera behind the tree"?
Back on topic: what surprises me is that no-one has (as yet) managed to combine two quite obviously complementary applications of GPS: navigation and road safety enhancement (thats speed trap warnings BTW). I'd like a Geodesy, and I'd also like SatNav. Why do I need two separate GPS units? Why can't SatNav tell me "turn right in 200 yards, and watch out for the speed camera behind the tree"?
, but you'll have to wait, i should go back at university and repeat some stuff about hardware and software. Then i'll be ready. Sounds like a bloody good idea, i'd buy a unit if you ever made one.
'Road safety' and guidance all in one.
Surely this is only a combination of the data held by Geodesy and that produced by NavTech or TeleAtlas.
It could easily all be combined on one hard drive and then downloaded onto a new DVD or similar.
'Road safety' and guidance all in one.
Surely this is only a combination of the data held by Geodesy and that produced by NavTech or TeleAtlas.
It could easily all be combined on one hard drive and then downloaded onto a new DVD or similar.
quote:
I am not some script kiddie (i am aging too). I have BOTH of them and lot of other techno gadgets becuse this is my work
Didn't imply that you were a s'kiddke. However, you reasons for pushing Palm above all else aren't going to work for everyone. You presented it as if there's no other choice... So I was just playing devil's advocate the other way. I don't have an iPaq, although I do have the latest HP box, so I'm not even defending Compaq here. It's the (now) age old TVR vs. Porsche argument: they both have plus points, but they're different pros and cons for different people. I happen to love the fact that as well as organising my life, my HP box will play MP3s while I'm on the train, makes a killer wireless network audit tool, is great for viewing pictures straight from my digital camera, and so on and so forth.
Yes, a Palm will likely do just as well (or maybe better) than a PocketPC box for in car nav, but my main contention is that in many cars, TVRs in particular, this sort of arrangement may be cheap, but (badly) flawed in terms of ergonomics and safety on the move.
quote:
Yes, you're right about TVR, but when I use that sort of car, nav. is only optional thing. I saw that even you use sedan, I beleive, for every day use.
Nope. I'm selling it because all I want to do is drive the TVR, come rain or shine. Nothing else puts a smile on my face like that. So, yes, satnav in the TVR is something I'm ultimately interested in.
quote:
Personally I use a PC with Autoroute 2002 and my handheld GPS with cable. The handheld is small and light and can be positioned in the front window. Batteries last ages so no problems there. A cable connects this to the PC and you can dynamically plot the route on the screen. I dont have navigation facilities or voice prompting, but it is excellent if you are lost or not sure where you need to go to....
Paul, I use the same setup - AutoRoute 2001 HP Omnibook in the passenger footwell/passenger seat and Garmin 3plus on the dashboard - power adapter for the laptop off the cig lighter and you're off - got me round Europe last summer really well (although it helps having a passenger who knows at least something about a computer....).
Is 2002 any better than 2001 in the GPS stakes do you know? And has anyone produced an addon program that would display the route instructions on the screen in big letters as you approach them or recalculate youre route based on last position? Seems bleeding obvious but I haven't found anything yet. The slow update is a pain, but something you get used to.....
Leithen,
MMm, Autoroute 2002 / 2001 - whats the difference? Well it is typical Microsoft - i.e. Not a lot! The look is a little different with it being similar to the Office XP look and feel. However, beyond that I have failed to notice anything major. Some of the roads are better marked and more accurate, but this is a small thing....
I guess you do the same, put the destination in and navigate on your own to there. No real on screen instructions (which I have always found to be confusing and inaccurate). Just use the dynamic plot of your position to figure out the best route. Works OK and more reliable than a map (if you are slow at reading maps that is).
Is 2002 worth an upgrade - no not really. I am seriously considering something else. To be honest, a friend of mine has a mapping system that is based on the actual OS maps scanned in (as bitmaps). The GPS plot is actually on the map and you navigate from there. What you end up with is a better map representation of the area (rather than a poorly drawn plot) based on the standard OS maps - right down to A-Z when you need them. Looks nice too... Must ask him what the package is and look at it myself... Oh and it is tiny in comparison with Autoroute....
Cheers,
Paul
MMm, Autoroute 2002 / 2001 - whats the difference? Well it is typical Microsoft - i.e. Not a lot! The look is a little different with it being similar to the Office XP look and feel. However, beyond that I have failed to notice anything major. Some of the roads are better marked and more accurate, but this is a small thing....
I guess you do the same, put the destination in and navigate on your own to there. No real on screen instructions (which I have always found to be confusing and inaccurate). Just use the dynamic plot of your position to figure out the best route. Works OK and more reliable than a map (if you are slow at reading maps that is).
Is 2002 worth an upgrade - no not really. I am seriously considering something else. To be honest, a friend of mine has a mapping system that is based on the actual OS maps scanned in (as bitmaps). The GPS plot is actually on the map and you navigate from there. What you end up with is a better map representation of the area (rather than a poorly drawn plot) based on the standard OS maps - right down to A-Z when you need them. Looks nice too... Must ask him what the package is and look at it myself... Oh and it is tiny in comparison with Autoroute....
Cheers,
Paul
Ok, again, I agree about scanned maps, but that implies extra work. Instead, when I am in trouble I try to match the information from outside with source like maporama or something like that. This, obviously, means that you are connected. You can even save the map and compare it later. Maporama is OK site, the information is accurate and I found even mountain roads.
Marshy, good luck with TVR. I am trying to get one, but in Italy is no no for every day use. My sedan has extra kids space.
>> Edited by go-go on Wednesday 30th January 16:00
Marshy, good luck with TVR. I am trying to get one, but in Italy is no no for every day use. My sedan has extra kids space.
>> Edited by go-go on Wednesday 30th January 16:00
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